Album of the day (#1918): The Clash by The Clash - Music

SuedeSwede

Ognoo

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Age: 27

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yeah but crass fucking bang and this album doesn't
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Grzywa

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Location: Polska

SuedeSwede wrote:

yeah but crass fucking bang and this album doesn't

For me, London's Burning single-handedly bangs more than anything Crass have ever recorded.

"CBS promote the Clash / Ain't for revolution, it's just for cash" - yeah, I've heard that, and so what ? Bullshit. Cash is a part of this business. Strummer's attitude remained right until the end.

And the irony is, bands like Crass musically took a hell lot from this album.
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SuedeSwede

Ognoo

Gender: Female

Age: 27

Location: On a cloud

Grzywa wrote:

And the irony is, bands like Crass musically took a hell lot from this album.

i'm not sure how you could possibly conclude that
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Grzywa

Gender: Male

Location: Polska

SuedeSwede wrote:

i'm not sure how you could possibly conclude that

Well, just listen to, say, Punk is Dead. The riffs there ?

And I remember reading an interview with Steve Ignorant who admitted The Clash actually inspired him to start his own band.
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Jimmy Dread

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Location: 555 Dub Street

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Grzywa wrote:

Well, just listen to, say, Punk is Dead. The riffs there ?

Satire is a wonderful thing.

Quote:

And I remember reading an interview with Steve Ignorant who admitted The Clash actually inspired him to start his own band.

That's just as relevant as saying the Sex Pistols gig in Manchester's LFTH inspired the music of Joy Division/New Order, The Smiths and Simply Red. The bands of the punk era took their cue from others 'doing it themselves' - less about the music, more about the fact that you didn't need a major label (or talent!) to sell your product or communicate your ideology. You could get a loan, press 1000 7"s and see where it took you. In many cases with the music being so amateur kids who long thought 'you know what? Any sod can do that' could with cheap pressing facilities and so forth could get their record released without caring what anyone thought. As the Desperate Bicycles put it rather succinctly - "It Was Easy, It Was Cheap - Go And Do It".

Crass owe as much musically to The Clash as they do to the Ramones and any of the great slew of messy garage bands of the 1960's. Hell, they owe as much to the Clash musically as they do to the Beatles. The stark contrast between the two is the politics behind the music. Fine, the Clash's first album in the main is a clarion call to the working-class youth of inner-city London - black and white - and as such reflects the boredom, the ennui and 'taking it to The Man' attitude of the down-trodden under-class of the time. In effect, it's squarely aimed at what The Adverts called the 'bored teenagers', not the old prog-loving, plaid-shirt wearing stiffs. Crass' music on the other hand is far less concerned with 'the kids', and in this lies the inherent difference between the two sonically - it's a highly-charged manifesto, with music as a mere vehicle to preach. You need only bend an attentive ear to tracks like Do They Owe Us A Living to see how buried the music is in the mix - it's a vocal tirade set to a drumbeat with the guitar used to form a wall of noise rather than pretty embroidery. There's nothing in (Reality) Asylum or Women that would remotely fit on a '77 punk record. And there's certainly no guitar solos (unlike with Police and Thieves, which I've always thought was 3 minutes too long). Let's not forget also that by this time ('78ish) every major label was out to jump on the 'next big punk thing', which is why you get insipid bands like The Lurkers and punk-lite like Generation X and Sham 69 on TOTP. Crass were certainly not a Clash derivate, although I would have loved to see that cnut Saville introduce them to a teatime audience who'd all spontaneously spit out their Horlicks after hearing them.

Your point that 'cash is part of the business' is exactly what Crass were rallying against. With London Calling The Clash morphed into a mainstream rock 'n' roll band within 2 years (Strummer was always a rock purist at heart anyway, c.f. 101ers), partly to survive, but partly because punk had lost its sting very quickly and wasn't going to get the $$$ from the Stateside market (look how the Pistols imploded on their US tour). 'Punk Music' should really be seen as secondary - it was the maelstrom of creativity and the realisation that anyone with something to say could 'crack the code' and make a record where the true spark of revolution lies. And in this is where Crass are vastly different - scant care for financial gain (all Crass records proudly state "PAY NO MORE THAN 3 POUNDS' or similar on them), the music will always come second to the anarchic manifesto. You couldn't say that about any Clash track (apart from maybe Cut The Crap, which is pretty much bollocks from start to finish).

I love The Clash and Feeding Of The 5000 in virtually equal measure (they're only separated by a few places on my Overall Chart), but the two are very different albums, sonically and lyrically. The Clash sounds tame by modern standards. Feeding Of The 5000 certainly doesn't. The Clash gig inspired Crass idealistically, but from a business, political and musical point of view, the two couldn't be further apart.
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Grzywa

Gender: Male

Location: Polska

OK mate, I get your point. I did not say Crass was literally derivative of The Clash, either musically, sonically or ideologically. They did, however, drew inspiration from early Clash, and musically I find this influence much bigger than that of The Beatles, or even Ramones. To my mind, Ignorant utters his lyrics much more like Strummer than Paul McCartney or Joey Ramone. And to avoid further confusion, yes he is great in his own right.
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Jimmy Dread

Old skool like Happy Shopper

Location: 555 Dub Street

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Grzywa wrote:

OK mate, I get your point. I did not say Crass was literally derivative of The Clash, either musically, sonically or ideologically. They did, however, drew inspiration from early Clash, and musically I find this influence much bigger than that of The Beatles, or even Ramones. To my mind, Ignorant utters his lyrics much more like Strummer than Paul McCartney or Joey Ramone. And to avoid further confusion, yes he is great in his own right.

Ah, but when you said 'the riff's there' re. Punk Is Dead you practically insinuated that Crass were musically derivative. You've also missed the point re. Ramones and Beatles - I could have picked the New York Dolls and the Stones just as easily to illustrate that The Clash's music bares no greater relation to the Crass sound than any number of guitar/bass/drum bands.

The sole inspiration I can see the The Clash have in relation to Crass was to drive Ignorant to get off his arse and form a band. Nothing more. The comparison in vocalists is somewhat flawed too seeing as unlike McCartney or Joey neither Ignorant and Strummer could sing for toffee. The difference lies in the attack - please don't tell me you think Strummer's delivery is as venomous and vitriolic as Ignorant's, because it isn't.

The problem I have with your initial dismissal of Crass not being as 'riotous' as The Clash and saying that

Quote:

And the irony is, bands like Crass musically took a hell lot from this album

Is that Crass were a one-off for the time and shouldn't be casually lumped together with the 'punk' scene just because the music's loud and fast. Crass were rebelling against everything. Punk, religion, the Government, Security firms, football hooligans, law and order, the music press. Their 'music' is a call-to-arms and an extension of their anarchic beliefs - please don't tell me there's more 'riot' in songs about condoms, prostitutes and 'we're a garageband/we come from garageland'. I get that they were nowhere near as influential as The Clash - they didn't have the clout of a major/established record label and certainly weren't out for world domination so little surprise they had no impact on Central Europe. But in Britain, the anarchy symbol and Crass' logo could be seen tippexed on to a fair number of leather jackets even into the late 80s, and ironically they embodied the true spirit of punk (putting the means of production and the power to self-release in the hands of the artist) much more than The Clash ever did.
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Grzywa

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Location: Polska

noWaxJim wrote:

Ah, but when you said 'the riff's there' re. Punk Is Dead you practically insinuated that Crass were musically derivative.

No. That was just an example of how influential they were, an answer off the top of my head.

noWaxJim wrote:

You've also missed the point re. Ramones and Beatles - I could have picked the New York Dolls and the Stones just as easily to illustrate that The Clash's music bares no greater relation to the Crass sound than any number of guitar/bass/drum bands.

I guess we won't agree on this point, cause I'd insist there's more Clash in Crass than any of the bands you've mentioned. And yeah, I got that you used Ramones and Beatles merely as random examples.

noWaxJim wrote:

The sole inspiration I can see the The Clash have in relation to Crass was to drive Ignorant to get off his arse and form a band. Nothing more. The comparison in vocalists is somewhat flawed too seeing as unlike McCartney or Joey neither Ignorant and Strummer could sing for toffee. The difference lies in the attack - please don't tell me you think Strummer's delivery is as venomous and vitriolic as Ignorant's, because it isn't.

I do find Strummer's delivery in early Clash recordings venomous and vitriolic, although I agree it is not as venomous or vitriolic as that of Ignorant's. And I do find similarities in vocal styles of Strummer and Ignorant - yelling, mumbling, ostentatious illegibility, call it what you want.

noWaxJim wrote:

The problem I have with your initial dismissal of Crass not being as 'riotous' as The Clash and saying that

Quote:

And the irony is, bands like Crass musically took a hell lot from this album

Is that Crass were a one-off for the time and shouldn't be casually lumped together with the 'punk' scene just because the music's loud and fast.

OK, that might have been a shortcut. What I meant by irony is the case of "patricide" that we have here - first Crass is somehow 'conceived' following the rite of passage (seeing Clash live), and then they go on to slash the 'fathers'. EDIT: on second thoughts, this is actually more slashing of CBS than Clash. I guess.

"Bands like Crass" was not supposed to say that "Crass sounds like many other bands", but rather that "like many other bands, they drew a lot of inspiration from The Clash first record". And I admit they did their own thing of it.

noWaxJim wrote:

Crass were rebelling against everything. Punk, religion, the Government, Security firms, football hooligans, law and order, the music press. Their 'music' is a call-to-arms and an extension of their anarchic beliefs - please don't tell me there's more 'riot' in songs about condoms, prostitutes and 'we're a garageband/we come from garageland'. I get that they were nowhere near as influential as The Clash - they didn't have the clout of a major/established record label and certainly weren't out for world domination so little surprise they had no impact on Central Europe. But in Britain, the anarchy symbol and Crass' logo could be seen tippexed on to a fair number of leather jackets even into the late 80s, and ironically they embodied the true spirit of punk (putting the means of production and the power to self-release in the hands of the artist) much more than The Clash ever did.

Well, at this point we'd have to get into a political discussion, which I'd like to avoid. So just to say, I prefer the attitude of The Clash than that of Crass. It works for me better in the long run and I haven't been much into anarchy over the last 20 years or so.

I also guess that, as a Clash fan, you know well that "condoms, prostitutes and 'we're a garageband/we come from garageland." does not really descibe the full range of their lyrical themes Wink

So the final thought is - Geez, I need to write more responsibly and avoid mental shortcuts. Also hey, I didn't know the sing for toffee expression, thanks !
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Last edited by Grzywa on 03/03/2016 10:45; edited 1 time in total

Decurso

Gender: Male

Age: 53

Location: Sao Paulo, SP Brazil

The only Clash album that really does it for me, but it does so in a big way. I considered posting about this album in "Artists You Only Like One Album By", but I kind of like Give 'Em Enough Rope too...just nowhere near as much.
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