Point of Discussion: The Development of Punk - Music

RockyRaccoon

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male

Age: 34

Location: Maryland

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POINT OF DISCUSSION

This is Point of Discussion, a thread for people to discuss issues and topics related to music in a thoughtful and productive way. The goal of this is to make you think, to make you take a look at what you believe, why you believe it, and what others believe. Good discussion is the key to any society, and this is a place where, hopefully, that can be fostered. If you would like a certain topic to be discussed or question to be posed, PM me or post here and I'll toss it in when I can.

All of that being said, there are a few guidelines.

The Guidelines:

Don't be a dick

All opinions are welcome

There are no wrong opinions

The conversation can go anywhere

The Topic:
Again courtesy of satie, a reassessment of the rise of punk music

satie wrote:

This came up a bit in another thread, where we talked about the spirit of punk, but it seems pretty amorphous to me. For some people, it's working class resistance to neoliberalism in the '80s, but for others, it's right-wing racist reactionary nonsense that took advantage of economic precarity during that era. For others (like me), it's more of an attitude towards music rather than a strict genre classification and serves as the root of a host of genres that aren't particularly sloppily played or reliant on political posturing, from art rock to new wave to post-punk to noise rock and beyond.

I think basically this boils down to, what is "punk" in the abstract? Not necessarily the genre, but the movement.
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mickilennial

The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female

Age: 36

Location: Detroit

Quote:

but for others, it's right-wing racist reactionary nonsense that took advantage of economic precarity during that era.

I have never heard this ever outside of talking about bands like Skrewdriver, if I’m going to be completely honest. I’d love to hear about this fringe perspective regardless.

meccalecca

Voice of Reason

Gender: Male

Location: The Land of Enchantment

Quote:

For others (like me), it's more of an attitude towards music rather than a strict genre classification and serves as the root of a host of genres that aren't particularly sloppily played or reliant on political posturing, from art rock to new wave to post-punk to noise rock and beyond.

This is generally how I feel. I feel like punk grew out of a resistance towards excesses. It was DIY, and unafraid of rough edges. Rock and popular at that point was mostly about overblown ideas. Punk musicians got right to the point and made songs about life, tapping into frustrations of their youth. Where Lou Reed painted portraits of New York's seedy underbelly, punks attempted to push you right into first hand experience.

With punk there's a certain attitude of not giving a fuck. It doesn't matter if you can't play complex scales. It's just about playing.
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Satie

Gowi wrote:

I have never heard this ever outside of talking about bands like Skrewdriver, if I’m going to be completely honest. I’d love to hear about this fringe perspective regardless.

i was referring to the influx of racist Skinheads and Neo-Nazis into a lot of punk scenes mainly, but there's also the accusations of misogyny in fairly insular scenes. i was mainly adding the balance to the dominant historical narratives and giving voice to the less praised side of things. kinda like how you can support hippies' general ideology but still think it was really fucked up that bearded bros just used it as a jumping off point to have literal harems.

benpaco

Who's gonna watch you die?

Age: 28

Location: Missouri

Gowi wrote:

Quote:

but for others, it's right-wing racist reactionary nonsense that took advantage of economic precarity during that era.

I have never heard this ever outside of talking about bands like Skrewdriver, if I’m going to be completely honest. I’d love to hear about this fringe perspective regardless.

Ian Rubbish and the Bizzaros

In all seriousness, I think less than just being right wing most of the more extreme examples of this are skinheads connecting to the anger behind a lot of hardcore music, though there have been several clashes between skinheads and some of the Dropkick Murphy spinoffs.

I think a lot of the far right wing extremism connections to punk come from one of two things. The first is the anger and revolutionary spirit behind punk. Skinheads who are looking to start a war are going to enjoy music where the intended listening environment is "while yelling and getting elbowed in the chin".Going out in the streets and fight clubbing with strangers might get you in trouble, but you can get away with a ton more at a hardcore show or just punk in general (the hard moshing I've seen at everything from Creative Adult to Basement to Foxing being indicative of that).

The other, though, is just a complete misreading of the music. It's hilarious to see skinheads attach themselves to ska especially due to both the original roots of it and even the 2tone being largely spurred by The Specials' anti-apartheid anthems. Punk's anarchic spirit reinforces that to an extent, because if you hate the system for what it is you're going to preach change, but a lot of the time you might not be specific. Saying you hate the government/system doesn't mean you're saying how to solve it so much as "I hate it" so fans on either side of extremism may attach themselves to it. Some people thought "California Uber Allies" was conservative but if you know Biafra you know that's not really the case. If all you knew of DI was "Guns" (which was me coming into this thread until I went to look them up), it's easy to think they were radical far-right but the song seems sarcastic next to things like "Reagen Der Fuhrer", and it's still hard for me to figure out if they were being sarcastic on "Guns" or if they legitimately just hate everything and are more flat out anarchists.

Then there's the conservatives who aren't neo-nazis (probably). Hell, remember that whole Rock Against Bush thing with all those punk bands? Turns out there was the conservative side, Crush Kerry, and while it didn't bring in as many big names as Rock Against Bush, it was started by an original member of both The Undead and The Misfits, and a whole bunch of bands I've never heard of except Epstein. There's the famous moment where Johnny Ramone thanked Bush in his Rock and Roll Hall of Fame acceptance speech. Lee Ving is supposedly conservative but not particularly extreme. And when it comes to them ... well they seem to be more about general anarchy again than specifics in their music for the most part I guess, but I still find those the most surprising.
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Norman Bates

Gender: Male

Age: 52

Location: Paris, France

satie wrote:

For others (like me), it's more of an attitude towards music rather than a strict genre classification

If we're talking about punk as music, I agree to a large extent (I'd probaly add to your "attitude towards music" "and the music business" because I think I a way it is even more important. One of the aspects of punk - even though it existed before - that has had the longest lasting effect is the DIY-"it-was-easy-it-was-cheap-now-go-and-do-it" ethics).

However, I do not think "punk" is an attitude towards music only. It all ironically began (I'm talking about England '77 here) with a super-sarcastic/opportunistic manager and a clothes shop.

RoundTheBend

I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

I think any part of the punk discussion needs to discuss the do it yourself attitude. You do the promoting yourself with cheap stickers/buttons. You have crappy recordings you did yourself. In essence it's the absence of a corporation supporting you. The true spirit of punk (if there is such a thing) does this by choice. Similar to how the Sex Pistols told the R&R Hall of Fame to F off.

If you can, go watch Sonic Highways... it talks about punk on a few of the episodes. I like the commentary.

Also I think punk means to be anti-establishment/anti-status quo. This is why I feel Little Richard's music and performances are just as punk rock as any punk rock band. In a time when polite pretty white music was the norm, here comes Little Richard with raucous performances, screaming vocals, and sax players that jump on your piano rocking out.

I think punk and skin-head movement get caught up in racism and I don't like that.

I also find it interesting that I've heard the argument that punk is for the conservative (as in anti-hippie), yet I don't quite agree with that. I think it equally is an anti-conservative lifestyle, it just isn't hippie.

RoundTheBend

I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

[quote="meccalecca"]

Quote:

With punk there's a certain attitude of not giving a fuck. It doesn't matter if you can't play complex scales. It's just about playing.

You can blame the existence of U2 on Punk Rock.

I remember Bono saying he went and saw the Ramones and thinking I could do this!

Then I remember the Edge saying something like, we grew up with bands like Led Zeppelin and other "rock gods" that played 84 minute guitar solos and were kind of pretentious... and we didn't want to be like that. He also said in all honesty... he couldn't be like that. I liked this statement because I think "successful" people in life leverage their strengths not focus on improving their weaknesses.

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sethmadsen wrote:

You can blame the existence of U2 on Punk Rock.

I remember Bono saying he went and saw the Ramones and thinking I could do this!

Then I remember the Edge saying something like, we grew up with bands like Led Zeppelin and other "rock gods" that played 84 minute guitar solos and were kind of pretentious... and we didn't want to be like that. He also said in all honesty... he couldn't be like that. I liked this statement because I think "successful" people in life leverage their strengths not focus on improving their weaknesses.

cestuneblague

Eyebrow of the Hurricane

Location: Chi-Town

Hey anybody remember this thread?

Also everybody watch Decline of Western Civilization