88th Academy Awards - Movies & TV - Forums : Best Ever Albums

benpaco
Who's gonna watch you die?

Age: 27
Location: California

StreetSpirit wrote:

Best Animated Film - None. This should not be a category because aren't animated films judged by the criteria as live action films? It's not what the movie looks like; It's about storytelling.

Wait I'm confused by what you mean here - are you saying that animated movies aren't judged by what they look like? Or that they're not judged by story? Either way it doesn't really make sense. Hell even if you argue that it is somehow a different set of criteria (which I would argue against), then it still makes sense to be at the same awards show for the same reason "Documentary" is a category vs "Feature Film".

What are your thoughts on the years that animated films have been nominated for Best Picture?

What are your thoughts on stories in animated films like Spirited Away? Waltz with Bashir? Everything by Hertzfeldt? Mind Game? What sets these apart from artsy, well respected live action films, documentaries, etc?

There's a lot of legitimate complaints about the Animated Movie category - that it's a Disney vs. Pixar category at its most competitive and no other films really stand a chance, that it's really just a category that focuses on kid's movies and ignores animated movies for anyone older than 12, there's even members of the academy wouldn't watch Princess Kayuga or Song of the Sea because they were "obscure Chinese fuckin' things"etc., but I'm really curious what you mean by your statement because as it's worded, it doesn't make sense, and any of the concepts I can possibly pull from it don't make sense.
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nutso42

benpaco wrote:

There's a lot of legitimate hogwash complaints about the Animated Movie category - that it's a Disney vs. Pixar category at its most competitive and no other films really stand a chance, that it's really just a category that focuses on kid's movies and ignores animated movies for anyone older than 12, there's even members of the academy wouldn't watch Princess Kayuga or Song of the Sea because they were "obscure Chinese fuckin' things"etc.

Regarding the Disney vs. Pixar complaint, you realize that even Dreamworks has taken more nominations than either of those, and that Disney has only won twice? And sure Pixar has won 8 times, but you can hardly call that unfair. Look at the films that have won, and the only one that didn't absolutely deserve it was maybe Brave. Saying Pixar winning a lot of Animated Film Oscars is unfair is no different than saying the Best Actor category is unfair because Daniel Day-Lewis is such a good actor.

And ignores animated films for adults? What Oscars are you watching? Sure, most of the nominees are kid's movies, but that's because most animated movies are for kids. But regardless, outside of kid's movies you've got Anomalisa, both Sylvain Chomet's films, Persepolis, basically everything by Studio Ghibli, etc etc

As for Academy members who wouldn't vote for obscure Chinese films, sure there's a handful of voters who are likely xenophobic morons, but you'll find that anywhere. And it certainly doesn't represent a big enough majority to worry about. Remember that one movie that was released this year that took over a BILLION at the box office? Minions, it was called. Scored nominations for Best Animated film at numerous ceremonies. Booted from the Oscars roster in favor of a Brazilian film and a Japanese film.

CA Dreamin

Gender: Male
Location: LA

Haha. I state my opinion on the best of film in 2015, and my animated category comment is what draws the attention.

StreetSpirit wrote:

This should not be a category because aren't animated films judged by the criteria as live action films?

Hayden wrote:

Odd opinion. I won't shoot it down, but if you genuinely believe that, I'm just curious as to your reasoning behind it.

benpaco wrote:

I'm really curious what you mean by your statement because as it's worded, it doesn't make sense, and any of the concepts I can possibly pull from it don't make sense. Hell even if you argue that it is somehow a different set of criteria (which I would argue against), then it still makes sense to be at the same awards show for the same reason "Documentary" is a category vs "Feature Film".

Sorry that my original wording was unclear but now I'll explain. Fiction films are about storytelling. Animation is just a style that filmmakers can choose that would best fit the stories they want to tell. Same reason why filmmakers may make a film in black-and-white. It's hard to envision Raging Bull, Nebraska, or Clerks in color just as it would be hard to envision Corpse Bride, Toy Story, Team America, or The Lion King as live-action. (It's probably harder to envision animated movies as live-action than black-and-white movies in color, but you get the idea.) You wouldn't want to envision these films with a different stylistic look anyway, because they are great the way they are.

Anyway even though animated films have a different aesthetic, I feel they should still be judged by the same criteria as live-action fiction. The same rules of storytelling apply. Good acting still applies even though we only hear their voices. And the same basic film language regarding the types of shots, how they look and how they're edited together, even though their entirely drawn, still applies.

However, benpaco, documentary films I feel are a separate art form that should have their own Oscar category. Documentary and fiction are just too different imo. Docs aren't always about storytelling. Some examine a historical figure (Fog of War, Unknown Known, Gore Vidal: United States of Amnesia, etc). Some document a historical event (The Square, Winter on Fire). Some raise awareness on current issues...you get the idea.

benpaco wrote:

What are your thoughts on the years that animated films have been nominated for Best Picture?

I really like the idea of animated films getting nominated for Best Picture...if there's one good enough which there usually isn't.

benpaco wrote:

There's a lot of legitimate complaints about the Animated Movie category - that it's a Disney vs. Pixar category at its most competitive and no other films really stand a chance, that it's really just a category that focuses on kid's movies and ignores animated movies for anyone older than 12, there's even members of the academy wouldn't watch Princess Kayuga or Song of the Sea because they were "obscure Chinese fuckin' things"etc.

I agree with those complaints, which is why getting rid of the category and treating animated movies the same as live-action makes sense to me. Having a separate category for animated is tantamount to saying they're automatically inferior to live-action, or that they're automatically superior. Is that so? I think not.

And Hayden, if you really believe animated fiction and live-action fiction are different art forms, that should have separate Oscar categories, then how come your film decade polls include both? Speaking of which, I got make a '70s list and send it to you soon (and mine will have Disney's Robin Hood on it).

Hayden

StreetSpirit wrote:

And Hayden, if you really believe animated fiction and live-action fiction are different art forms, that should have separate Oscar categories, then how come your film decade polls include both? Speaking of which, I got make a '70s list and send it to you soon (and mine will have Disney's Robin Hood on it).

Got your list Smile

Will tally it up in a bit.

I'm not sure if this is my defence, but the polls also include documentaries, which you've labelled as 'different' as well. We've done a poll just for animated films though, opposed to a 'no animation allowed' list. I just think it's a slightly different medium, that's all. It's the difference between live-action actors/ voice acting, and cinematography/animation. It's just different. Just because jazz albums are allowed to be nominated for 'best album' at the Grammys doesn't mean that it's silly to have a sub-catagory award just for jazz albums.

All in all, I understand your thought process, and I'm not saying it's a bad way of thinking, but I certainly feel like I personally judge animated films on a slightly different criteria than live-action. Mostly minor things though, not something like a plot or screenplay.
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benpaco
Who's gonna watch you die?

Age: 27
Location: California

nutso42 wrote:

Regarding the Disney vs. Pixar complaint, you realize that even Dreamworks has taken more nominations than either of those, and that Disney has only won twice? And sure Pixar has won 8 times, but you can hardly call that unfair. Look at the films that have won, and the only one that didn't absolutely deserve it was maybe Brave. Saying Pixar winning a lot of Animated Film Oscars is unfair is no different than saying the Best Actor category is unfair because Daniel Day-Lewis is such a good actor.

And ignores animated films for adults? What Oscars are you watching? Sure, most of the nominees are kid's movies, but that's because most animated movies are for kids. But regardless, outside of kid's movies you've got Anomalisa, both Sylvain Chomet's films, Persepolis, basically everything by Studio Ghibli, etc etc

As for Academy members who wouldn't vote for obscure Chinese films, sure there's a handful of voters who are likely xenophobic morons, but you'll find that anywhere. And it certainly doesn't represent a big enough majority to worry about. Remember that one movie that was released this year that took over a BILLION at the box office? Minions, it was called. Scored nominations for Best Animated film at numerous ceremonies. Booted from the Oscars roster in favor of a Brazilian film and a Japanese film.

I should start off by saying that I don't neccessarily agree with every complaint made, but those are complaints that aren't that uncommon and I don't think unfounded.

The Disney vs. Pixar was a poor way of me saying "even the most competitive years it's still just major studio versus major studio" and I recognize Dreamworks gets nominated out the wazoo as well. I don't think Ratatouille deserved the win, and I think Up and Toy Story 3 are both much more flawed of movies than people give them credit for. They seem to get a free pass a lot of times because "it's pixar!" but outside of making you feel nostalgic or sad for 15 minutes I'm not really sure what they bring to the table.

And that's not to say that I don't appreciate Pixar, they revolutionized animation and Finding Nemo is one of my favorite movies ever, it's just that I don't think anyone deserves that free pass (even JGL was in Premium Rush, after all). Of their movies, I still haven't seen The Good Dinosaur or Monsters University, but to me 6 of their movies are above average (including Toy Story 3 though I continue to have mixed feelings about its actual quality as a movie versus the fact that it is a sequel that tied things up), 4 are average, and 3 are below average.

And of the movies that have actually won the award, only 3 weren't Disney, Pixar, or Dreamworks - Rango (Nickelodeon/Paramount), Happy Feet (Warner Bros), and Spirited Away (Ghibli but the English version is Ghibli/Disney). Again I'm not sure if this is just because they're the ones putting out the most, but it is unfortunate the little guys aren't more recognized (in this and every category). In fact, just about every legitimate problem I have with the animated category applies to almost every category at the Oscars and award shows in general - I think it's more a reason to take them with a grain of salt than to ignore them outright.
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Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

Y'all gotta get some Anomalisa in in here. Yo purism is back.

I like the Animation Oscars. It at least helps get Pixar the Oscars it deserves every year. An animated movie still has the chance to win Best Picture, but because of our prejudices at the time, it probably wouldn't (just like with foreign films)