Album of the day (#2996): The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn - Music

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

sethmadsen wrote:

See I and I feel DSOTM and The Wall actually are realistic expressions of what you are getting at, and Piper tries to but fails. But maybe that's just me. DSOTM and The Wall have believable versions of what you mention above and it's like the uncanny valley suffers on piper.

Yeah I think its just you and what seems to be the need to listen to Piper a bit more closely and, in particular, focusing on and delineating what sort of emotions/concepts its vocals and instrumentation are expressing. Its a much more surrreal work (hence, not aiming for realism) than their mid period (and of course even more so for Bosch and most other surrealist/dadaist visual or cinematic art from the 1910s-1930s). Its also a far more original sound world.

How do the sound worlds of DSOTM or The Wall express worlds akin to those of Bosch or alike surrealist/dadaist/medeival-fantastical-futurist art?
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Last edited by AfterHours on 02/28/2019 04:02; edited 1 time in total

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Quote:

For me it's not the level of oddness that is at question, rather the ability to relate to that, and therefore have a more powerful emotional response. If a few can have that emotional response, but a majority can't... in my book that actually defeats the ability for art to be meaningful in it's purpose. Some kind of quote I'm probably making up (I wanna say Emmerson) said something like: the mark of true genius is that complex thoughts can be conveyed clearly and easily.

But alas... it might be because those have melodies/let the art breath and I don't feel piper does.

By the way I really think that's a key difference in where the aesthetic differs. Tonal vs non-tonal music. It's makes the gap make a lot of sense when you see it through that lens. At least this gap I've been trying to understand. Pipe is a much less tonal album in comparison.

Obviously at least partially a flawed concept because youre not taking into account the knowledge/experience of the listener, which is 99% of the time what the actual problem is (once solved suddenly the work sounds like a masterpiece ... same work though). Pretty much every listener knowledgeable/experienced in the great surrealist/dadaist art of the 20th century (and Bosch from the 1500s) is likely to assimilate and relate to Piper's expressiveness very easily.

Youre also determining that a work is better after its been related to a bunch when before that it was the exact same work arent you? Once its been "accepted by the canon/culturally"?
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craola
crayon master

Location: pdx

I feel surrealists tends to be very calculated (often too calculated), which is where I think Roger Waters’ Floyd fits in. Super calculated can be brilliant, but it can always feel a bit contrived. Dali and Waters walked both sides of that line.

This album, on the other hand, doesn’t sound very thought out to me at all, which is what I was getting at. This and Saucerful sound like Friday night jam night. I don’t think it’s a bad quality (and I think it's a decent album at that), but it falls terribly short of "genius". What, musically, can you tell me that makes this superior?
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Last edited by craola on 02/28/2019 05:31; edited 1 time in total

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

AfterHours wrote:

Yeah I think its just you and what seems to be the need to listen to Piper a bit more closely and, in particular, focusing on and delineating what sort of emotions/concepts its vocals and instrumentation are expressing. Its a much more surrreal work (hence, not aiming for realism) than their mid period (and of course even more so for Bosch and most other surrealist/dadaist visual or cinematic art from the 1910s-1930s). Its also a far more original sound world.

How do the sound worlds of DSOTM or The Wall express worlds akin to those of Bosch or alike surrealist/dadaist/medeival-fantastical-futurist art?

How don't they?

And that may be true. I think I've heard the album 5 times and I just feel it was feeble attempts at something they later actually matured to accomplish.

Last edited by RoundTheBend on 02/28/2019 05:09; edited 1 time in total

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

AfterHours wrote:

Quote:

For me it's not the level of oddness that is at question, rather the ability to relate to that, and therefore have a more powerful emotional response. If a few can have that emotional response, but a majority can't... in my book that actually defeats the ability for art to be meaningful in it's purpose. Some kind of quote I'm probably making up (I wanna say Emmerson) said something like: the mark of true genius is that complex thoughts can be conveyed clearly and easily.

But alas... it might be because those have melodies/let the art breath and I don't feel piper does.

By the way I really think that's a key difference in where the aesthetic differs. Tonal vs non-tonal music. It's makes the gap make a lot of sense when you see it through that lens. At least this gap I've been trying to understand. Pipe is a much less tonal album in comparison.

Obviously at least partially a flawed concept because youre not taking into account the knowledge/experience of the listener, which is 99% of the time what the actual problem is (once solved suddenly the work sounds like a masterpiece ... same work though). Pretty much every listener knowledgeable/experienced in the great surrealist/dadaist art of the 20th century (and Bosch from the 1500s) is likely to assimilate and relate to Piper's expressiveness very easily.

Youre also determining that a work is better after its been related to a bunch when before that it was the exact same work arent you? Once its been "accepted by the canon/culturally"?

That may have some truth to it, but I feel like the uncanny valley Bosch provided is accessible. You don't need to know the secret Scaruffi sauce to get it. It clicks to humanity because it is great art. It's uncanny valley is believable and most people actually find it fantastic.

I'm not sure if you are saying it is obvious or partially flawed. Obvious would imply it's clear... at least partially flawed would allow for both sides of the coin to have truth to them.

But sure - you could chalk it up to inexperience and ignorance. I would not consider myself to have 100 hours of dadaism or surrealism under my belt. But I'm not arguing those qualities, rather it's ability to convince.

And no, I can't agree with the last comment you are making. I'm only making the observation that Piper violates, imo, the uncanny valley in it's attempts at surrealism and their later work, or even the work of the Beatles surpass it. A point I know you'll disagree with, but I do think that point is key to good art, whether you agree or not that Piper possesses it or not. I think it'd be hard to find an argument that Piper is masterful at the uncanny valley.

TheHutts

Gender: Male

I really like Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but it would be even stronger if it included the non-album singles from the period like See Emily Play, Apples and Oranges, and Arnold Layne, instead the weaker material like the Roger Waters song.
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Yann

Gender: Male
Location: France

A gorgeous, super-trippy album.
Out of curiosity, do you guys know psychedelic albums before this one ?

baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Yann wrote:

A gorgeous, super-trippy album.
Out of curiosity, do you guys know psychedelic albums before this one ?

Yes, there are quite a few from 1966. https://bit.ly/2Vucp0s
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Yann

Gender: Male
Location: France

craola wrote:

i've tried to understand the "genius" of this, but for the life of me, this sounds like an average jam with the band. i mean, i've been in jams that sounded no different than this album. i'm obviously missing something.

Strange. I hear (almost) classic pop songs

Yann

Gender: Male
Location: France

sethmadsen wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Yeah I think its just you and what seems to be the need to listen to Piper a bit more closely and, in particular, focusing on and delineating what sort of emotions/concepts its vocals and instrumentation are expressing. Its a much more surrreal work (hence, not aiming for realism) than their mid period (and of course even more so for Bosch and most other surrealist/dadaist visual or cinematic art from the 1910s-1930s). Its also a far more original sound world.

How do the sound worlds of DSOTM or The Wall express worlds akin to those of Bosch or alike surrealist/dadaist/medeival-fantastical-futurist art?

How don't they?

And that may be true. I think I've heard the album 5 times and I just feel it was feeble attempts at something they later actually matured to accomplish.

I think AfterHours is right about this album. The rest of their discography is really another adventure, a completely different project. Piper is psychedelic and surrealist, Dark Side of The Moon is dark, bluesy and atmospheric, still a bit psychedelic but not as much, and not surrealist. The Wall is sort of depressed musical... All very far from The Piper at The Gates of Dawn.