My Criteria For Art

[AfterHours]

TO ALL -- OR ANYONE INTERESTED:

I am very likely going to be erasing and getting rid of the "Recommendations" page/part of this Criteria page. I used to have a little bit more time to honor these a bit more consistently, but unless it is already in line with my plans at a given time (such as a Metal rec while I am working on my Metal genre list, etc), I am simply not sure when I am going to get around to a number of those (still waiting to be listened to/viewed). My agenda, first and foremost, would naturally be Scaruffi's selections in a given art form (due to the probability of agreement, for efficiency's sake). And I can only fit in other recommendations outside this agenda on occasion -- so it will just take too damn long to get to several of them, and the page has become close to useless these days.

I am probably going to replace these pages with something else. I am considering replacing them with "reviews/analysis" and/or "bullet points" on various works (arranged alphabetically or by genre...) so as to give further examples of my thinking/criteria in application, and to act as sort of a guide for a given work that others might find useful. And maybe further aspects to this "guide". I may just erase it altogether (aside from the main criteria page) due to the possibility that I'm not sure how often I would have time to keep up/revise/update a guide in the first place.

I am also in the process (potentially) of polishing up my criteria in general -- just nuances, not a major overhaul. Particularly in ensuring all the numbers and variations are accurate reflections of the works and their quality in uniform relation to each other. It's too nerdy to go into here exactly what I mean but basically, DelBocaVista and I have been discussing formulas and math and variations and concepts along this line for months now (via PM) and this may produce some revisions. I have never quite been able to express the numerical aspect of the criteria "uniformly and perfectly" (meaning, the ratings and the numerical/rating combinations leading to them) ... that is, if such a "perfect" and "uniform" system even exists. Though what I have already there is very applicable and practical as is, it is flawed in certain outlier possibilities that could arise.

Anyway...

Fwiw, I am warning that the recommendations page is probably coming down soon so if anyone wants to save any recommendations or information from it for whatever reason, I would do so. I will most likely be taking it down sometime around Christmas.

Btw, by taking it down, I do not mean that I will no longer be accepting recommendations. It was just a page to log these and the results and (when it was more active, including on previous website, it produced a lot of discussion about the works and so forth). You can still recommend albums, films, paintings, or whatever to me just like always.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

[RoundTheBend]

Sorry gents, it's been a week.

Also I'm incredibly impressed with your ability to make such hollow music look awesome. I really am not sure I want to continue a discussion that suggests GnR is as great as you are making it sound (you are selling it incredibly well and if I had no understanding of aesthetics or artistry or writing music or how to play an instrument, I'd probably just agree with you). I really have yet to see really any argument which corroborates your 6 or so positions on what makes fine music/art (a framework I actually agree with completely) with GnR. I suppose, as it truly is, our subjective outlook on this likely has truth (both sides). Perhaps I should agree with my man Hegel and realize with some dialectic reasoning, we likely would see where both of our stances fall short and where they both hold truth/value. In the end I personally think it's ludicrous one could back GnR's songwriting/instrumentation, emotional depth, or mental acuity to surpass even the single Please Please Me. But I think it's cool you have a shitload of adjectives to back it up (and I mean that in seriousness... that was well written). I personally can't see the claims you are making take fruition (as you can't see the claims I've made take fruition either, completely disagreeing with any "expert" in the matter (countless musicians, music theorists, or professors of music).

One thing I'll leave is this for food for thought:
The Edge is often seen as a mediocre guitar player. I see him as a scientist of space and time (as a good musician should be). What I do know is Slash's guitar stuff nearly any decent guitar player can play (even with a similar emotion), but to figure out the calculations the Edge put into his music... actually very few can pull off. The Edge doesn't shred, but he does mess with space and time like very, very few guitarists can (and actually "plays to the song" like Ringo... instead of being a show off). Just a different perspective. Not saying it is the "right" perspective... that'd be a bit ignorant to claim.

[AfterHours]

[RoundTheBend]

I will say I respect your tenaciousness/standards in finding solid music and really do respect your point of view, even if I have a hard time agreeing with 30% of it sometimes. Good friends/humans can see another's point and understand it/acknowledge it/validate it, and I think we did an ok job in doing so. I suppose one thing I will ask of you is please don't say you have yet to see anyone give examples of emotional depth, musical prowess, or intellectual intrigue in The Beatles music. I haven't done a fantastic job giving direct analysis/examples/references because this is a hobby and I didn't have time to go back and find the research to back up my claims, but that perhaps will be a project I do in the future. I think there are a number of flaws in previous discourses I've had issue with and doesn't paint a full picture (for both sides of the coin).

May your projects carry on in heart and mind (drenched in catharsis and enlightenment), as will mine.

Also, thank you for being willing to try and have real discussions here, even if forums aren't the best (when adults spend the small amount of free time we have "trying" to commune with a greater good).

[AfterHours]

[AfterHours]

@seth

The other thing to know is youre unlikely to have a very smooth discussion/argument with me if you havent assimilated at least a fairly sizable helping or more of the same art that populate my "Greatest" lists (Im guessing Jazz from the 60s forward and most of the semi obscure or very obscure Rock selections are the biggest missing links, unless maybe we include cinema and visual art too?) We can make efforts here and there, but there is a huge difference in the works/experiences I am judging from in comparison to the types of works/experiences you are comparing to. Something to sort of remind yourself of or keep in mind is that Ive already experienced and assessed all the albums on your entire chart (excepting some of the most recent ones) plus all the other substantial works of each of their genres to compare them to. I doubt if you can say the same thing about my chart/lists -- which is completely fine in and of itself -- but that makes it very difficult for you to truly get where I am coming from, despite your obvious intelligence, valiant interest and efforts.
_________________
Best Classical
Best Films
Best Paintings

[RoundTheBend]

I can agree with that. I have only listened to about 35 of your top 100 records. Some of which I actually don't find authentically mirroring the human experience, rather the fringe thereof (which then starts to make it feel to me-subjective-as unauthentic music). I am thinking if I were to start listening to all of them, I'm not sure I'd then start appreciating the aesthetic presented, as perhaps you have equally been displeased with mine (probably thinking I'm a Rolling Stone Magazine pleb). Please don't take offense, it's my emotional reasoning and nothing more - I'm sure they are all fine representations of great music. I think one massive difference in our value systems is that for you it has to be the "best" representation of something, and for me there is no such thing as Plato's chair, it's only rationalism (imagined in our own minds as such), and therefore can't be anything beyond subjective.

I really do think music can be a Pavlovs dog experiment, and I think our mouths salivate with different triggers. What you feed more into, is the more you strive for/appreciate, etc.

But I can agree with your point of view. It appears to me that you feel you have "graduated" past these albums I think are good or great and seek something beyond them. Maybe in ten years that could be something I do too... who knows. Perhaps I'll just be listening to serialism and actually enjoy it! It does seem like you have been at this since 2006 (perhaps earlier?) and I for a short stint in 2011 (really just documenting my musical tastes at that time), but really only putting my musical taste to the "test" since 2016.

And I agree with what you say about the possible crux of our agreement. The level in which an artist like The Beatles, Beck, R.E.M., Paul Simon, Radiohead, U2, or Nirvana could be seen as anything other than subpar when stacked against other artists and the subjective value we associate with them.We also disagree the degree upon these artists will have any historical significance 200 years from now.

Sometimes I thought well Wagner and Beethoven can't really be compared because they different things very well... in other words, define "the greatest". They conveyed completely different ideals musically and philosophically. Gesamtkunstwerk vs master of the symphony - nearly pure extreme emotion vs "vernunft" (there's a theory that Wagner supersedes Beethoven due to the poetic forms Wagner used/Goethe's arguement that music is the lowest form of art and poetry is the highest due to the amount of brainpower it takes to understand/write poetry and/or the interpretation thereof - music alone is nearly strictly emotional, especially of the time... uh oh, I'm rambling late at night things I learned 6 years ago...

[AfterHours]

[AfterHours]

[AfterHours]