Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat - Music

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

glynspsa wrote:

This is a great summation of trout mask in my humble opinion. Awesome write up.

AfterHours wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Amirkhosro wrote:

He wasn't just doodling on a piano though. The individual guitar and bass lines are beautiful and creative with well-defined structures.

He's definitely just doodling on the sax though =)))

There's a persistent myth going around that Beefheart composed the entire thing during 8 and a half hours on a piano. The myth was created by himself in a Rolling Stone interview. According to John French, each song's first piano sketches took a few hours to make, and then months to develop as the band practiced the music non-stop. Kinda sucks that he didn't tell this instead of "I made this all by myself in 8 and half hours" as a marketing strategy. Maybe he would've been much more popular if he wasn't so extremely egotistical. Still, the music's dope and fun to play despite whatever some hipster douchebags claim about how the secret to the meaning of life is hidden deep under its non-existent "indecipherable structure" which only unlocks itself to those with the best of ears. For fuck's sake, the guy's singing about going up to the mountain with his wife (which rhymes with life!) on a bunch of dirty-ass delta blues riffs. They should just straight up dickride Stockhausen or something for this kind of horseshit posturing.

Oh she does just like Sister Ray said.

But... But... and I mean this in the least pretentious/douchebaggery way possible: the album does become an extremely profound, even metaphysical, experience, the more one puts it together and becomes acclimated to its parts, and as a whole. This is primarily due to the following:

(1) Beefheart's vocals expand the temporal space of human psychology in relation to its environment -- never before expressed as such in Rock (and not approached to this degree in Jazz or Classical either) -- both by thoroughly dilating its sound with cries for help, animalistic screams/howls, and through a wild, endlessly varied and nuanced expressiveness that unlocks seemingly long-dormant, repressed psychology/forces of nature.

(2) The shape-shifting, extremely physical, tactile and surreal instrumentals/compositions are constantly expressing, both in unison and counter to his vocal expressions, the concept(s) of violent facial/body contortions and of influx/warping of spatial dimensions, his past enacting terrible delusions and scars upon him (farcical and serious) as he is acting them out/acting against this affliction, and these often become akin to "out-of-body" experiences, like he is exploding out of the confines of his skin to express something not possible otherwise.

(3) The endless variation of the music, and its constant flux of vocal and instrumental creativity, while also echoing, reminiscing on previous variations, seems to present an ever-expanding scope of all which came before, turning the whole album into like that of a massive stream-of-conscious.

(4) 1, 2, and 3 combined with the very deep conviction, blues and soul, fundamental to the work.

All of these factors combine to turn the work into an extraordinarily offbeat, insane, metaphysical experience, which expounds relentlessly and endlessly on the thoughts and expressions of a crazed, madman into a whole that is impossibly profound and powerful, of endless detours, an endless domino effect of its own insanity trying to break free from its own skin.

To what end?

The end of madness actually. In an ultimate dichotomy, it uses the craziest, most indecipherable constructions towards reverse ends. It pits one's own innate recognition of truths, of patterns, of palatability -- against compositions that go as far as possible to distort these things, while also still barely maintaining it just enough to be recognizable. It erects madness and nonsense into an ultimate in metaphysics, into a relentless venture for truth, the truth of one's life, of one's self, Beefheart himself as the surrogate and conveyance. Beefheart represents a state of mind relentlessly unraveling but also (impossibly) as a means to some final existential, ultimate truth. It is simultaneously the greatest satire in the history of art upon "profundity" while also perhaps its greatest exponent.

It represents the point in the history of art when the purposes of High Art (like that of Beethoven, Michelangelo, etc) and the "pointless" works of Modern Art (like that of Picasso, Duchamp, Warhol, Pollack) finally met on equal ground and created their supreme masterpiece in an impossible display of equivalence.

Thanks

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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Well this has indeed been interesting.

I like you all.

boyd94

AfterHours wrote:

Going back to my original point, which was in partial, but respectful, contention with Amir's point about people proclaiming TMR's significance...

I will say that those not extensively familiar with Trout Mask Replica (and perhaps the history of painting too) are far less likely to agree with what I said. Most people consider the album a joke or mistake, but aren't familiar with it enough to recognize that it's, at the very least, a very profound, extremely elaborate and insightful, stunningly creative and intentional, joke or mistake. I would also say that the previous points I list (1-4) are prerequisites to illuminating this in its full glory, and that one should listen to it with those (especially 1 and 2) in mind at virtually all times, as they are virtually 100% prevalent, in varying guises, throughout. If successfully done (which is not too difficult once one has a basic acclimation to the work), the level of significance, its astounding emotional and conceptual depth, should become increasingly apparent until the work is completely overwhelming. And then the rest of what I said might make more sense, if it doesn't already.

I agree with everything you've said, but sometimes even the most undeniable interpretations fail to illicit an overwhelming experience. Whenever I get round to finally putting up my bloody chart I suspect it'll be in the top 20, a truly staggering piece of work, but I think the very nature of the work fixes it at a psychological distance to which I can never obtain in any authentic way. I can only ever pretend to identify with it completely.

Puncture Repair

Tap wrote:

Puncture Repair wrote:

"critics attempting to write about this album tended to rely, excessively in my view, on emotional descriptors of what their experience of listening to it is, which doesn't always help us to get a handle on exactly what is going on"

"if you're a music student and you haven't sat down and listened to this entire record, which is 80 minutes long, at least 4 times, then your musical education is woefully incomplete"

holy shit what a dead outlook on music. I'm guessing this guy is wearing a suit because he's an accountant and also likes to spend his free time fully appreciating good algebra equations

yeah looking at what's actually happening in music is boring I'm sorry for bringing it up here. what kind of a heartless nerd would be interested in that

I get you're being sarcastic, but I appreciate you sharing the video for the sake of discussion. I've got issues with the video, and not you for sharing it. You obviously respect what the guy is saying, so I should have been less crass about dismissing it. I think exploring how music affects is important, and obviously looking at composition is always going to be some part of that, but it shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of how we judge music. This guy's analysis is smug but also a mess.

The 'woeful' comment is just for him to set some arbitrary barrier onto the video. Where did he pull the number four from? If you've heard it three times, your education is woeful? The majority of my friends are music students, I suspect none of them have heard Trout four times, and all of them have high degrees in the subject. This guy is not an educator, he's a composer. He doesn't have a basis for criticizing someone else's education as 'woeful' other than to set himself above those that haven't met his barrier. That's unfair.

And if we are saying this video is for musical students, it's strange to start looking at the ‘poetry’ (his words) of the song. This guy is a composer, I doubt he also specializes in literature. He says "let's have a look at technical features", but then his ‘analysis’ doesn't go much further than explaining Beefheart is rhyming 'gloom' with 'doom'. He calls it a 'first person lyric narrative piece', which isn’t a thing, it’s just some words he put in order on the spot. He starts to actually pick apart the spelling and punctuation of a spoken word piece - why? He describes the piece as ‘abrasive’ without actually saying why, which is exactly the kind of emotional writing he dismissed at the very beginning.

It takes him 17 minutes to actually get to analysing the composition. He explains the melody each instrument is playing, at which tempo, key and rhythm. Most of which, he shows, are simple, conventional rock melodies and musical keys played over the top of one another so it sounds like a mess (my opinion). He doesn’t analyse why the guitar swaps key, and what effect that produces. He doesn’t justify any one of Beefheart’s decisions. That’s not an analysis, that’s a breakdown. One way he tries to describe it is a ‘jumble of tonalities’, and that that jumble is ‘very complex’. He says ‘It was put together by great skill from the performers’, how? He doesn’t offer any reason for how it was put together, just that it is. If it’s a ‘jumble’ like he says, then that’s not exactly convincing me of this ‘complexity’ he keeps talking about.

Look at the comments. These aren’t all students of music, they’re fans of Captain Beefheart that want to feel smarter or more cultured for enjoying their favourite music. They want to be told why they must be smarter or more cultured, because the kids these days listen to EDM, or something.

There’s more complexity happening at the end of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkgK4jfi6M), and it’s just two musicians having a conversation. They’re playing chords that aren’t just major rock chords, and they even justify why they move between key’s and chords, and the emotional effect it produces, the story it conveys – and how that’s all constructed.

‘Music is not different from life … that’s probably the greatest attraction’.

sethmadsen wrote:

Well this has indeed been interesting.

I like you all.

You too, man.

Tha1ChiefRocka
Yeah, well hey, I'm really sorry.

Location: Kansas

You know what hasn't been mentioned (and it rarely is when this mess is mentioned)? Zappa produced this album. I don't know how much he actually did, but I would bet that all of the chaos was aided by his genius, since he had already made several albums that were better anyway.

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Quote:

And if we are saying this video is for musical students

I'll reply more later but I have to note we are absolutely not saying this, if we includes me. Because all I was saying is that the sentence that begins with "if you are a music student" is a statement that is directed at music students.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

boyd94 wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Going back to my original point, which was in partial, but respectful, contention with Amir's point about people proclaiming TMR's significance...

I will say that those not extensively familiar with Trout Mask Replica (and perhaps the history of painting too) are far less likely to agree with what I said. Most people consider the album a joke or mistake, but aren't familiar with it enough to recognize that it's, at the very least, a very profound, extremely elaborate and insightful, stunningly creative and intentional, joke or mistake. I would also say that the previous points I list (1-4) are prerequisites to illuminating this in its full glory, and that one should listen to it with those (especially 1 and 2) in mind at virtually all times, as they are virtually 100% prevalent, in varying guises, throughout. If successfully done (which is not too difficult once one has a basic acclimation to the work), the level of significance, its astounding emotional and conceptual depth, should become increasingly apparent until the work is completely overwhelming. And then the rest of what I said might make more sense, if it doesn't already.

I agree with everything you've said, but sometimes even the most undeniable interpretations fail to illicit an overwhelming experience. Whenever I get round to finally putting up my bloody chart I suspect it'll be in the top 20, a truly staggering piece of work, but I think the very nature of the work fixes it at a psychological distance to which I can never obtain in any authentic way. I can only ever pretend to identify with it completely.

I don't know... the conviction, soul, ferocity ... the colorless death but vibrant dilation of its blues, the depths of its depression, the pummeling, monotonous and depressing madness of its instrumentals and excursions, the skin-peeling, shape-shifting violence and pained fury ... is so tortured, so pained, such a "fission" of intense, spastic emotional outbursts running out of the protagonist's control ... like the horror of being held against one's will and electro-shocked, or tortured, or experimented upon and going through spasmodic, delusional, distressed reactions amidst the unconscionable betrayal and horror of the experience -- to varying degrees both scathingly farcical and dead serious -- and elicited from such an audacious variety of guises and angles ... that it could take 100+ listens to really come to grips with all of it and identify with it (though it certainly doesn't have to take that long). And maybe you never will, maybe it will happen soon, who knows... But I would just recommend continuing to return to it, and being open and observant to its music, even if you are blown away by it already in a distanced sort of way. Its depths never seem to end, it never gets old (providing one keeps listening to it "correctly" and not trying to hear pop music out of it or something...).
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RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

You know what hasn't been mentioned (and it rarely is when this mess is mentioned)? Zappa produced this album. I don't know how much he actually did, but I would bet that all of the chaos was aided by his genius, since he had already made several albums that were better anyway.

This is making way more sense now.

I love Frank Zappa, but I can barely stand some of his music. I mean really. I love his commentary on society and even attended his funded high school program at Van Nuys High School called Z.I.T. = Zappa Institute of Technology. It was basically a class on how to be a roady from his sound engineer. It was rad.

I'm going crazy enough as it is, I don't need music to take me there. I need music to take me out of that. Connect me to a humanity that is beautiful, true, and real, but not tragically depressing and maddening. I have enough of that in day to day life.

mickilennial
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Gender: Female
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Location: Detroit

Tragedy, Depression, and Madness are all some of the most essential pieces of art.

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Gowi wrote:

Tragedy, Depression, and Madness are all some of the most essential pieces of art.

Correct.

I'm not saying give me karo syrup every time.

Key word was tragically.

I suppose what I am saying is I don't need to see pictures of the last duke you took to know you shit, and you don't need to come and show it to me to show me if it stinks or not.

There's an aesthetic difference.