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Facetious

Gender: Male
Age: 24
Location: Somewhere you've never been

AfterHours wrote:

I'm not totally sure but I've heard most or maybe all of them at one time or another. In the late 90s/early 2000s I got pretty into them for a bit.

I recently revisited Soft Bulletin a couple weeks ago because I thought it could make the leap from my current 6.5-rating. Also, thought it might be good timing while I was extra enamored with Pet Sounds, Gershwin and Mozart. But I would probably lean more to a 6 instead after that, though Ill give it 1 or 2 additional tries before deciding. Basically, it is a good album, but I found it much too reliant on its (great) production quality than its actual content. Though pretty colorful, its kind of clumsy at times and not particularly great at psychedelia (ex: compare to the otherwordly Deserter's Songs ... and XTCs Skylarking which seems like a key touchstone for SB). The vocals would probably be fine in a more psychedelic work (such as their earlier stuff) but are usually too naive, limited and underwhelming for the songs that are closer to straight melodic pop (they mitigate moments that would be more beautiful or compelling or potent otherwise). There is clearly an end-of the millenium existential vibe here (from the confused mind or stupor of someone on LSD) and the work seems to also come from a place of pending tragedy, passed through a naive and colorful visage (an escape from reality?) though Im not sure it really fulfills these. It might work as a concoction that includes parody somewhere between XTC (Skylarking), Beach Boys (Pet Sounds, Smile), early Disney, Opera buffa (Mozart, Gershwin) and 60s Zappa ... but Im not sure either if its truly effective wholly enough here. Maybe. Basically it's a naive album (from all angles: conceptually, expressively), which can be charming/endearing, and it has some great -- even striking -- moments (and a few touching ones), but too often lacks the expressive/compositional maturity, consistency and impact that the Pop 7s and above tend to have.

Anyway, as you can tell I am still uncertain of its merits. It has a shot...

I'll give you that Skylarking is clearly the superior album. As for the rest:
- Are you listening to The Soft Bulletin 5.1 (the remastered, definitive version with no remixes)?
- I'm not sure what you mean by relying too much on production quality. Many of the most expressive albums rely heavily on production. The effects on The Soft Bulletin are clearly not just tacked on but an essential part of its content.
- Which moments do you find clumsy?
- Comparing it to Deserter's Songs, I personally don't have a preference for either one. Deserter's Songs has a couple of useless instrumentals (I Collect Coins and The Happy End) that don't really add much to the content. The Soft Bulletin is better than Deserter's Songs when it comes to upbeat songs (compare the closer of DS to most of SB). Just because DS is more brooding and nocturnal, and SB is more openly commercial and optimistic/summery, doesn't mean the former has more depth. The vocal styles aren't very different on both either; Wayne Coyne's voice fits the wide-eyed childish vibe of the album. Personally, I think both are just about equally excellent. So many details in SB to pay attention to: Feeling Yourself Disintegrate, with the trick of using a "disintegrating" voice sample as percussion, the psychedelic reverb, the constantly shifting guitar lines, with melancholic "hooks" every now and then, and the way the track builds. That and the pathos of Waitin for a Superman can hold their own against the likes of Holes and Goddess on a Hiway. The bittersweet Eno imitation Sleeping on the Roof builds in the same way that Pick Up If You're There from SB does. The massive drums and soaring strings (?) on Race for the Prize and the thick, joyful bass on Spoonful and Buggin (the bass drop on Spoonful is particularly notable for how it breaks up the opening Disney-ballad section, but ends up elevating the song instead of breaking the mood); certainly ideas you wouldn't find on DS. You yourself mentioned the contrast between the existential mood and the colourful visage it's filtered through. It's certainly worth a shot.

I'd also recommend Clouds Taste Metallic; the pathos and guitar noise of Mercury Rev's early albums passed through a naive and colourful visage yet again. It's a unique take on noise pop, somewhere between the structured, polished SB and Flaming Lips' amateur noise pop. Some of the notable tracks are The Abandoned Hospital Ship (an epic ballad with a touching, distorted guitar solo), the crazed energetic noise pop (think a more polished Syringe Mouth/Bronx Cheer) of Psychiatric Explorations of the Fetus with Needles and Kim's Watermelon Gun, the sludge of Lightning Strikes the Postman, and the contrasting duo of Evil Will Prevail and Bad Days (both crescendoing, but with wildly different mantras; the latter is sort of a lively lullaby, a comforting antidote to the pessimistic but musically upbeat Evil Will Prevail). As with SB, it's more affecting if you accept the naivety. (Priest Driven Ambulance and Hit to Death are not pop enough for the list but they're great albums and probably the closest to Mercury Rev in sound.)

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

@ Facetious

Though any retort/reply is generally fine (from whoever), I especially like that you are retorting with points to be taken up and given consideration. I will try and take those up as soon as I can but will probably need to revisit SB or some of it to point out specifics relating to individual songs or parts of songs.
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

Facetious wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

I'm not totally sure but I've heard most or maybe all of them at one time or another. In the late 90s/early 2000s I got pretty into them for a bit.

I recently revisited Soft Bulletin a couple weeks ago because I thought it could make the leap from my current 6.5-rating. Also, thought it might be good timing while I was extra enamored with Pet Sounds, Gershwin and Mozart. But I would probably lean more to a 6 instead after that, though Ill give it 1 or 2 additional tries before deciding. Basically, it is a good album, but I found it much too reliant on its (great) production quality than its actual content. Though pretty colorful, its kind of clumsy at times and not particularly great at psychedelia (ex: compare to the otherwordly Deserter's Songs ... and XTCs Skylarking which seems like a key touchstone for SB). The vocals would probably be fine in a more psychedelic work (such as their earlier stuff) but are usually too naive, limited and underwhelming for the songs that are closer to straight melodic pop (they mitigate moments that would be more beautiful or compelling or potent otherwise). There is clearly an end-of the millenium existential vibe here (from the confused mind or stupor of someone on LSD) and the work seems to also come from a place of pending tragedy, passed through a naive and colorful visage (an escape from reality?) though Im not sure it really fulfills these. It might work as a concoction that includes parody somewhere between XTC (Skylarking), Beach Boys (Pet Sounds, Smile), early Disney, Opera buffa (Mozart, Gershwin) and 60s Zappa ... but Im not sure either if its truly effective wholly enough here. Maybe. Basically it's a naive album (from all angles: conceptually, expressively), which can be charming/endearing, and it has some great -- even striking -- moments (and a few touching ones), but too often lacks the expressive/compositional maturity, consistency and impact that the Pop 7s and above tend to have.

Anyway, as you can tell I am still uncertain of its merits. It has a shot...

I'll give you that Skylarking is clearly the superior album. As for the rest:
- Are you listening to The Soft Bulletin 5.1 (the remastered, definitive version with no remixes)?
- I'm not sure what you mean by relying too much on production quality. Many of the most expressive albums rely heavily on production. The effects on The Soft Bulletin are clearly not just tacked on but an essential part of its content.
- Which moments do you find clumsy?
- Comparing it to Deserter's Songs, I personally don't have a preference for either one. Deserter's Songs has a couple of useless instrumentals (I Collect Coins and The Happy End) that don't really add much to the content. The Soft Bulletin is better than Deserter's Songs when it comes to upbeat songs (compare the closer of DS to most of SB). Just because DS is more brooding and nocturnal, and SB is more openly commercial and optimistic/summery, doesn't mean the former has more depth. The vocal styles aren't very different on both either; Wayne Coyne's voice fits the wide-eyed childish vibe of the album. Personally, I think both are just about equally excellent. So many details in SB to pay attention to: Feeling Yourself Disintegrate, with the trick of using a "disintegrating" voice sample as percussion, the psychedelic reverb, the constantly shifting guitar lines, with melancholic "hooks" every now and then, and the way the track builds. That and the pathos of Waitin for a Superman can hold their own against the likes of Holes and Goddess on a Hiway. The bittersweet Eno imitation Sleeping on the Roof builds in the same way that Pick Up If You're There from SB does. The massive drums and soaring strings (?) on Race for the Prize and the thick, joyful bass on Spoonful and Buggin (the bass drop on Spoonful is particularly notable for how it breaks up the opening Disney-ballad section, but ends up elevating the song instead of breaking the mood); certainly ideas you wouldn't find on DS. You yourself mentioned the contrast between the existential mood and the colourful visage it's filtered through. It's certainly worth a shot.

I'd also recommend Clouds Taste Metallic; the pathos and guitar noise of Mercury Rev's early albums passed through a naive and colourful visage yet again. It's a unique take on noise pop, somewhere between the structured, polished SB and Flaming Lips' amateur noise pop. Some of the notable tracks are The Abandoned Hospital Ship (an epic ballad with a touching, distorted guitar solo), the crazed energetic noise pop (think a more polished Syringe Mouth/Bronx Cheer) of Psychiatric Explorations of the Fetus with Needles and Kim's Watermelon Gun, the sludge of Lightning Strikes the Postman, and the contrasting duo of Evil Will Prevail and Bad Days (both crescendoing, but with wildly different mantras; the latter is sort of a lively lullaby, a comforting antidote to the pessimistic but musically upbeat Evil Will Prevail). As with SB, it's more affecting if you accept the naivety. (Priest Driven Ambulance and Hit to Death are not pop enough for the list but they're great albums and probably the closest to Mercury Rev in sound.)

I havent revisited SB to point out more exact specifics but here are some more general points that might be enough for you to see what I mean ... for starters:

Re: Relying on production quality ... The work is replete with moments where great affectation is given to a moment of loudness or spectacle that is technically impressive and a cool effect on its own, but more or less "unearned". In various cases, the emotional momentum/development preceding these climactic moments has not built the foundation of tension or emotional progress in order for the release/climax to have resolved this, expound or further develop it in a particularly meaningful or substantial way, or to become truly "climactic", or is somewhat incongruous to what precedes it.

Re: clumsy ... the combo of this instrumental tendency with the mediocre vocalist (who is only mildly affecting on his own and lacks a compelling harmonic integration to the music that might make up for this) marks the album with a consistent emotional "awkwardness". This can perhaps be justified by claiming "it's that way because it's psychedelic" but the album isnt particularly strong in this regard. Deserter's Songs' sound world has a far better coalescence of elements, with (for the most part) each moment extending and developing from the last emotionally/compositionally (where Coyne's similar vocals would probably work too) into a highly immersive and involving experience ... Another possible justification is that it is a series of mini collages (which I would probably agree with), but these aren't particularly impressive compared to Rock's lyrical or satirical zeniths such as Faust/Zappa/Vampire Rodents or... Another possible justification is "it's Dadaist", which might have some merit, but (again): Faust, Zappa, Floyd's Piper, Wyatt, etc. Or, a bit more pop oriented: Cope's World Shut Your Mouth, Eno (Tiger Mtn), and so on... SB lacks the integration and momentous development of a seasoned composer (the coalescence of elements, rhythm, etc, thoroughly aligned in purpose and effect). Bellybutton, a much superior work to SB, is a superb example where the integration of disparate elements/quotations/sub-genres is so flawless as to be completely missed by the listener if not observed and followed closely. Like Skylarking, this clockwork, medley-like (within the songs) integration is remarkable by comparison and has probably about double the cumulative impact.

Again, not necessarily my complete answer unless you find yourself seeing what I mean after this... If not Ill revisit at some point, note specifics and relay them (I'm willing to if needed but not super jazzed to spend an hour or so revisiting it + notes, while in the middle of revisiting Rock, Jazz and Classical masterworks <-- not meant as a personal annoyance towards you or your questions or request Very Happy

)
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gidgidi

Gender: Male
Age: 22

ok sorry but wait what lol since when is neutral milk hotel pop

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

gidgidi wrote:

ok sorry but wait what lol since when is neutral milk hotel pop

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

AfterHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT or OAI are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines the former as indie folk + indie rock, and the latter as lo-fi indie + psychedelic folk + indie rock + indie folk, both of which seem much more apt than classifying them as pop. Debunking "lo-fi indie" as a distinct genre is a red herring, because on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. That link says it developed alongside several pop genres, not that it is synonymous with those genres. Just because Neutral Milk Hotel's albums have a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make them pop albums as a whole.
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines it as indie folk + indie rock, which seems much more apt. Debunking "lo-fi indie" is a red herring, as that's only listed as a secondary genre, and on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. Just because the album has a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make it a pop album as a whole.

I didn't think it was a bad question actually. A through E combined (or "all of the above") is my answer, though written in good fun. Even if you disagree, repeat step (b) Laughing

(As you can maybe tell, it's not something I care much about, even if maybe the album is really 49% qualified instead of 51%. Although it has 60s psychedelic/art pop all over it, I am already aware it's a borderline selection because of its other confluences: such as the aforementioned indie folk ... particularly linking to Dylan's early period such as It's All Over Now Baby Blue and the stream of consciousness of songs like Mr Tambourine Man being perhaps the most direct parallels)
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT or OAI are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines the former as indie folk + indie rock, and the latter as lo-fi indie + psychedelic folk + indie rock + indie folk, both of which seem much more apt than classifying them as pop. Debunking "lo-fi indie" as a distinct genre is a red herring, because on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. That link says it developed alongside several pop genres, not that it is synonymous with those genres. Just because Neutral Milk Hotel's albums have a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make them pop albums as a whole.

In regards to the RYM family trees, I wouldnt put all your stock in that, as it can be its own red herring. On that logic (taking the descriptors entirely at face value instead of the music at hand, its expressive style, purpose, reference points and connotations) an album such as Julia Holter's Aviary should be considered much more Pop than ITAOTS, which is obviously nonsense.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

AfterHours wrote:

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT or OAI are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines the former as indie folk + indie rock, and the latter as lo-fi indie + psychedelic folk + indie rock + indie folk, both of which seem much more apt than classifying them as pop. Debunking "lo-fi indie" as a distinct genre is a red herring, because on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. That link says it developed alongside several pop genres, not that it is synonymous with those genres. Just because Neutral Milk Hotel's albums have a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make them pop albums as a whole.

In regards to the RYM family trees, I wouldnt put all your stock in that, as it can be its own red herring. On that logic (taking the descriptors entirely at face value instead of the music at hand, its expressive style, purpose, reference points and connotations) an album such as Julia Holter's Aviary should be considered much more Pop than ITAOTS, which is obviously nonsense.

I don't put all my stock in them, but I think they are generally the best system online. I actually don't think that's nonsense, let alone obviously so. I think it's true. One piece of art can be simultaneously more pop and more experimental than another piece of art. But like you I'm not very interested in a lengthy debate about genre boundaries.
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

baystateoftheart wrote:

Aft erHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read Very Happy

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

Cool

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT or OAI are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines the former as indie folk + indie rock, and the latter as lo-fi indie + psychedelic folk + indie rock + indie folk, both of which seem much more apt than classifying them as pop. Debunking "lo-fi indie" as a distinct genre is a red herring, because on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. That link says it developed alongside several pop genres, not that it is synonymous with those genres. Just because Neutral Milk Hotel's albums have a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make them pop albums as a whole.

In regards to the RYM family trees, I wouldnt put all your stock in that, as it can be its own red herring. On that logic (taking the descriptors entirely at face value instead of the music at hand, its expressive style, purpose, reference points and connotations) an album such as Julia Holter's Aviary should be considered much more Pop than ITAOTS, which is obviously nonsense.

I don't put all my stock in them, but I think they are generally the best system online. I actually don't think that's nonsense, let alone obviously so. I think it's true. One piece of art can be simultaneously more pop and more experimental than another piece of art. But like you I'm not very interested in a lengthy debate about genre boundaries.

Works for me. Agreed that RYM is generally very reliable for genres, and agreed on the lack of interest in debating the issue -- even though I was listening to White Light White Heat, including Sister Ray, which made the discussion extra memorable and intense Laughing

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