Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN. - Music

mickilennial
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AfterHours wrote:

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yes

AfterHours

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YoungPunk wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it -- I dont know what the fuss is about saying one is #3 and Wagner's top 2 are "only" #5-#10 or something in the entire history of art. Perhaps the only way to briefly "explain" the qualitative difference between a 9.7-9.8 like Mahler's 9th and a 9.5-9.6-9.7 (or so) like The Ring/Tristan & Isolde would be to listen to each several times and pay close attention to each in relation to my criteria.

If I post a write up/review/essay of Mahler's (or Beethoven's) 9th it would have to be given the proper time such as my Citizen Kane analysis or, to a lesser extent, my Nostalghia analysis (see Movies and TV section for either) ... or even a sample/teaser version to even grasp a hint of it would have to be on the order of my brief dive into a Sistine Chapel analysis (see the conversation with sethmadsen on My Criteria page) or something on the order of my Mona Lisa analysis (see "Greatest Paintings" list -- scroll down to "Images" section).

But really man, I am very busy and rarely have the time to provide in depth analyses, especially for something as herculean a task as those at/near the top of my lists, and especially "on demand".

I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent swaths/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this.

I presume you mean Mahler's Ninth? This is what I was looking for. Thanks. I guess maybe what you are saying is true but it just doesn't do that for me subjectively. Maybe other of Mahler's symphonies sure, but this one I understand is mainly celebrated for being a very "modern" symphony, not on its substance, which is not good for me. Then again maybe you're really talking about Beethoven's ninth then it makes more sense, but I think you're talking about Mahler's ninth. I guess I'm just not a "symphony" person.

Nope, Beethoven's 9th, as per your original (and ignorant) comment. Anyways, suit yourself man, I wont be wasting your time any further on this.
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YoungPunk

But why are you upgrading Mahler's ninth if Beethoven's ninth is your favorite? Shouldn't you be upgrading your favorite?

YoungPunk

Anyhow I'm not really all that surprised you evaded Mahler's ninth, there's very little positive I can say about it, and I suspect that's true for most people, Beethoven's ninth is way better, but you wouldn't know what it was about if not for the words. Other than that you would need an outside (dare I say artificial) book written by some scholar that didn't write the music and usually has nothing to offer lol.

Fischman
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YoungPunk wrote:

Anyhow I'm not really all that surprised you evaded Mahler's ninth, there's very little positive I can say about it, and I suspect that's true for most people, Beethoven's ninth is way better, but you wouldn't know what it was about if not for the words. Other than that you would need an outside (dare I say artificial) book written by some scholar that didn't write the music and usually has nothing to offer lol.

Even if I had no idea what the words were, I would still think it one of the greatest musical achievements of all time, based on the music alone. And even without knowing the words, I would still understand to be a great, heroic piece uplifting of the human spirit. The music conveys the message quite well even without the words.

mickilennial
The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female
Age: 35
Location: Detroit

YoungPunk wrote:

But why are you upgrading Mahler's ninth if Beethoven's ninth is your favorite? Shouldn't you be upgrading your favorite?

some people can gauge what their favorites are and what is better than their favorites based on their own criteria

i don't anymore but some do

AfterHours

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Gowi wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

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yes

Agreed then Laughing

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YoungPunk

Fischman wrote:

Even if I had no idea what the words were, I would still think it one of the greatest musical achievements of all time, based on the music alone. And even without knowing the words, I would still understand to be a great, heroic piece uplifting of the human spirit. The music conveys the message quite well even without the words.

As for being a great musical accomplishment, I am in agreement, In fact I think all of Beethoven's symphonies are wonderful based on the music alone. On the other hand, many others besides me are not uplifted by Beethoven's ninth, and are in fact bored. Those people would not get the message, and might be more uplifted by the music of Radiohead or the Beatles. Beethoven would have failed to communicate to those people based on the music alone.

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

To anyone interested (though a bit off topic from the OP) Laughing

There was a typo before with "swath" instead of "wrath" (in bold now). Might make a little difference in relaying what I meant but probably no big deal...

"I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent wrath/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this."
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YoungPunk

I guess I just don't see music's purpose as expression. I'm more interested in the math aspect, all the interesting patterns you hear, like I just took a credentialing math test to be a substitute teacher and I actually enjoyed how difficult it was! It was a pleasant surprise! Not really that relevant, but I think it explains my views, which are subjectively correct at the very least.