Sort Overall by Genre/Sub-Genre - Suggestions

Spyglass
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The only one of those three that I would exclude is punk. Experimental is much broader and shouldn't be left off. Punk and dance will make it on the subgenres if they're not part of the major list, but J think experimental fans would express more sour disappointment over not being represented at all. Where would we put it? Under miscellaneous? I'll be honest, I think a "miscellaneous" tag is an unprofessional way to handle things. Wht would the major miscellaneous genres be? Experimental? Drone? Miscellanous would be a category for other potential major categories that "didn't make the cut," so its only purpose is to save room for the major list when it's just an extra tag we don't need.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Spyglass wrote:

The only one of those three that I would exclude is punk. Experimental is much broader and shouldn't be left off. Punk and dance will make it on the subgenres if they're not part of the major list, but J think experimental fans would express more sour disappointment over not being represented at all. Where would we put it? Under miscellaneous? I'll be honest, I think a "miscellaneous" tag is an unprofessional way to handle things. Wht would the major miscellaneous genres be? Experimental? Drone? Miscellanous would be a category for other potential major categories that "didn't make the cut," so its only purpose is to save room for the major list when it's just an extra tag we don't need.

Yeah, I wanted to put experimental on there, but then I was a bit persuaded by albummaster's comments, but I think you might persuade me back. The genres under experimental here do make it seem like a fairly coherent top-level genre: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Experimental . It's not for just anything experimental (not experimental rock, free jazz, etc.), but rather for the array of experimental musics that don't fall into other major genres, and share a lot of socio-cultural overlap in their ideas and scenes.

I can't think of any genre of dance music that can't be covered under electronic, pop, r&b, rock, or one of the other top-levels on my list. Can you?

I don't see miscellaneous as an actual genre, more as a way of marking none of the above. I think it's better to have a way to filter for those albums, and I think if there's not a misc placeholder of some kind, people might try to tag them with other top-level genres that are a stretch. Unprofessional is a bit harsh.
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Spyglass
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Disco is strictly dance, unless you want to file both under pop, which wouldn't make sense because dance-pop exists.
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PurpleHazel

Personally, I don't think rock subgenres like metal and punk should be top-level. Yes, metal is a huge subgenre to metal fans, but other genres have just as many subgenres as rock, as albummaster pointed out; the only difference is popularity.

baystateoftheart wrote:

Yeah, I wanted to put experimental on there, but then I was a bit persuaded by albummaster's comments, but I think you might persuade me back. The genres under experimental here do make it seem like a fairly coherent top-level genre

My first impulse was to include experimental, but after following your link, all the artists I spot-checked on RYM were tagged with another genre before experimental, which backs albummaster up: experimental is almost always the modern outer extreme of other genres.

Disco's essentially a subgenre of R&B. Evolved from funk, Philly soul and other kinds of R&B.

baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

PurpleHazel wrote:

Disco's essentially a subgenre of R&B. Evolved from funk, Philly soul and other kinds of R&B.

Exactly! Disco is mostly r&b, and electronic covers the disco that isn't.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

PurpleHazel wrote:

Personally, I don't think rock subgenres like metal and punk should be top-level. Yes, metal is a huge subgenre to metal fans, but other genres have just as many subgenres as rock, as albummaster pointed out; the only difference is popularity.

My first impulse was to include experimental, but after following your link, all the artists I spot-checked on RYM were tagged with another genre before experimental, which backs albummaster up: experimental is almost always the modern outer extreme of other genres.

I hear you on metal and partly agree, but it seems to me that a lot of metal has moved so far afield from rock that it no longer really covers it.

Artists can create music in many different styles during their careers, so I don't think whether they worked in other genres is relevant. It's the experimental releases that are relevant - can they fit into other top-level genres in a satisfactory way? Maybe enough of them can so that this isn't value added as a top-level genre. I'll look over the top 100 in the experimental chart and post my thoughts.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Here's what I got from matching the RYM experimental top 100 up with the best fit top-level genres on my list. Seems like a fairly solid argument against experimental being a top-level genre.

Ambient 23
Classical 6
Electronic 22
Folk 3
Hip-Hop 2
Jazz 1
Metal 4
Pop 5
R&B 1
Rock 9

No Good Substitute 24
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Spyglass
Resident Metalhead

Gender: Male
Location: The red dot on the map

Personally, I don't really care what happens with disco. Dance fans might be disappointed that it doesn't have a primary, but it's still a hard one to categorize. Much of dance is filed under pop and electronic, but we can't really call dance an electronic genre or a pop genre because of dance-pop. It's its own thing, just like experimental.

As for metal and punk, I'll agree to both of them being subgenres of rock. I don't think that warrants a larger discussion than necessary.

If we're really going to have a miscellaneous tag, then it should be reserved for smaller genres that were previously mentioned by Albummaster in the lists he previously posted.

Children's
Brass and Military (should be filed under fanfare if possible)
Broadway and Vocalists could be filed under theater and entertainment
Comedy... are we really going to do this?
Easy Listening is a subgenre of traditional pop on Rateyourmusic.
Field Recordings should be under experimental.
Holiday music
Indie and alternative should be two separate rock categories, even if indie is filed under alternative.
New Age could be filed under miscellaneous, but we should have a new age pop subgenre for more pop-based new age musicians like Yanni.
Opera should just be a classical subgenre. And let's not connect rock opera to it.
Religious music could be a miscellaneous subgenre.
Soundtracks could be a miscellaneous genre.
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Spyglass
Resident Metalhead

Gender: Male
Location: The red dot on the map

Here's a prototype for mainline styles and their biggest subgenres. Some of these entries will be empty to keep in line with the current discussion.

Ambient: Space Ambient, Dark Ambient
Blues
Country
Electronic: House, Techno, Trance, Downtempo
Folk: Traditional Folk
Hip Hop: I'll let the hip hop specialists play with this style.
Jazz: Bebop, Smooth Jazz, Avant-Garde Jazz
New Age: Neoclassical New Age, New Age Pop
Pop:
Rock: Metal, Punk, Alternative
R&B: Soul, Funk, Disco

Miscellaneous: Psychedelia, Soundtracks, Experimental, Theater and Entertainment

It seems like the mainline is still missing some things, besides would categories. Psychedelia could potentially become its own primary. Neo-Psychedelia doesn't fall under any one category despite its common overlapping. And drone, free improv, noise, plunderphonics and turntablism all fall under direct subgenres of experimental music with no overlapping. Due to industrial rock and metal not being experimental genres, industrial would have to be filed elsewhere if we're to include it (I know I badly want an industrial tag).

Carribean music should be a primary. If I have this right, rocksteady, reggae, dancehall, ska and calypso all fall under this category?
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

Spyglass wrote:

Here's a prototype for mainline styles and their biggest subgenres. Some of these entries will be empty to keep in line with the current discussion.

Ambient: Space Ambient, Dark Ambient
Blues
Country
Electronic: House, Techno, Trance, Downtempo
Folk: Traditional Folk
Hip Hop: I'll let the hip hop specialists play with this style.
Jazz: Bebop, Smooth Jazz, Avant-Garde Jazz
New Age: Neoclassical New Age, New Age Pop
Pop:
Rock: Metal, Punk, Alternative
R&B: Soul, Funk, Disco

Miscellaneous: Psychedelia, Soundtracks, Experimental, Theater and Entertainment

It seems like the mainline is still missing some things, besides would categories. Psychedelia could potentially become its own primary. Neo-Psychedelia doesn't fall under any one category despite its common overlapping. And drone, free improv, noise, plunderphonics and turntablism all fall under direct subgenres of experimental music with no overlapping. Due to industrial rock and metal not being experimental genres, industrial would have to be filed elsewhere if we're to include it (I know I badly want an industrial tag).

Carribean music should be a primary. If I have this right, rocksteady, reggae, dancehall, ska and calypso all fall under this category?

Looks like our top-level lists have a lot in common. I'm flexible about whether metal needs a top-level genre or not. And I assume you intended to include classical.

What's an example of neo-psychedelia that wouldn't be an acceptable fit in pop, rock, or electronic?

I definitely think we need African, Asian, Caribbean, and Latin American as top-level genres. And yes, Caribbean would include all of those, although at a certain point in time mainstream ska becomes more closer to rock than Caribbean (definitely by the third wave I'd say).
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