Best Ever Western Films [POLL] - Games - Forums : Best Ever Albums

PurpleHazel

Gowi wrote:

Yeah, it's a much better High Noon knockoff.

Quote:

Don't think Outlander's a Western.

Outland not Outlander. And it’s a Space Western.

I don't recognize that as a subgenre. An analogy much more thread-appropriate: just because The Magnificent Seven borrowed the plot of The Seven Samurai doesn't make it a samurai film. But that's just one person's opinion.

badseed

Gender: Male
Age: 35
Location: FL

PurpleHazel wrote:

badseed wrote:

Hayden wrote:

Mad Max: Fury Road (Miller himself called it a 'western on wheels')
Paris, Texas

I'm gonna have to refer to your "if you think it belongs, list it, and if nobody agrees it probably won't make the list anyway" thing. I hope this doesn't bite us in the ass by making us wind up with more Star Wars films than John Wayne but it is what it is. With that said none of those were on my radar as westerns and if they were they're all probably good enough to be there. But personally those three are a no for my list.

Just because a director was inspired by a genre while making a film, that doesn't in of itself make that film that genre. I personally don't think No Country for Old Men is a Western either. I'd argue that NCfOM is a neo-noir film if anything. Cormac McCarthy intended the book to be a noirish crime novel. There Will Be Blood is one of the best Hollywood films of this millennium, but I don't personally consider it a Western. Don't think Outlander's a Western. Just because a movie borrows a plot from a another movie doesn't make it the same genre. Throw Mama from the Train isn't a suspense film!

But "if you think it belongs, list it" is the right policy. I just hope the No Country for Old Men and some of the other contemporary movies won't push great classic westerns off the list just because more members have seen them and they're favorites of theirs.

I do think The Revenant and Last of the Mohicans are "frontier Westerns."

You make lots of valid points (especially NCFOM being far more noirish than western). I wonder if I should just scrap this and rework it to 50 westerns and 50 war films. I still feel like 50 isn't enough but a great looking top 50 would look better than a scrambled mess of a top 100 where there are at least a dozen films that roughly half of us objected to include because we don't think it belongs while the other half included it just because it's all they've really seen. I was all for the "pick whatever" thing but something deep down has me thinking the whole idea of neo-westerns and space westerns is so subjective it's gonna swallow up many of the great true western films of the 50s just because they're far more seen, which in turn just weakens our list from a historical standpoint both in the future when we've seen far more stuff and also to anyone who lays eyes on it that might be a true connoisseur of the genre... Oh well, this is what I asked for. I guess I shouldn't expect a perfect list but I beg of everyone, please try to do a little watching of some essentials before this ends. If the likes of Johnny Guitar and The Gunfighter can't hit our top 100 while Spaceballs and Yojimbo do, we did it wrong.

mickilennial
The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female
Age: 35
Location: Detroit

Quote:

I don't recognize that as a subgenre.

And I am glad you are not an authority about genre.

Also, I did say I was bending my rules here a bit. Normally I wouldn't put neo-westerns or space westerns on a western list because they are undeniably their own thing and use the western genres philosophy a little differently. If you look at my letterbox list you can see more than enough that I resonably err on judging which films are acceptable enough with my bent rules to fit on such a list. It is not an arbitrary decision.

PurpleHazel

You don't know whether I'm an authority on genre or not. What I really meant is that I haven't seen any science fiction films, including Outland, that I'd consider Westerns.

Are there examples of Space Western movies other than Outland and Serenity (neither of which have enough Western movie tropes for me to consider them Westerns)?

mickilennial
The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female
Age: 35
Location: Detroit

I know you’re not an authority on genre because space western is and has been a literary genre for decades and our personal preferences will never change that fact.

However, unfortunately for the space western it has not had a lot of transistion toward the cinematic screen as adaptions of famous space western novels are not common. Some bill Moon Zero Two as a Space Western. The current films we have as citations of the genre are rather low in number or use very few tropes from the western genre as you said. This is one of the reasons why Outland (and the post-apocalyptic western, The Postman) is the only science fiction film to be represented on my chart; because they fit my liberal association and non-rigid determination. That said, while is a literary genre, it is not a film genre due to an extreme lack of content and volume. It is perfectly fine to not consider Outland "western" enough. I can see that argument fine and I will concede to it as a subjective one, but to disregard one of pulp fiction's inventiveness because you don't like it is a subject of ridicule.

PurpleHazel

Gowi wrote:

I know you’re not an authority on genre because space western is and has been a literary genre for decades and our personal preferences will never change that fact.

However, unfortunately for the space western it has not had a lot of transistion toward the cinematic screen as adaptions of famous space western novels are not common. Some bill Moon Zero Two as a Space Western. The current films we have as citations of the genre are rather low in number or use very few tropes from the western genre as you said. This is one of the reasons why Outland (and the post-apocalyptic western, The Postman) is the only science fiction film to be represented on my chart; because they fit my liberal association and non-rigid determination. That said, while is a literary genre, it is not a film genre due to an extreme lack of content and volume. It is perfectly fine to not consider Outland "western" enough. I can see that argument fine and I will concede to it as a subjective one, but to disregard one of pulp fiction's inventiveness because you don't like it is a subject of ridicule.

You never once mentioned anything but film and this is a film thread, so I had no reason to think you were talking about anything but film. I meant space western movies this whole time. I'm well aware of Golden Age space opera science fiction -- have read some of those novels. And Firefly and the relevant Star Trek episodes.

Quote:

it is not a film genre due to an extreme lack of content and volume.

Don't know why you gave me a hard time, when this was exactly what I meant from the start: that it seemed to me there weren't enough films, or films with enough tropes, for it to qualify as a film subgenre. I never once disregarded or said I disliked science fiction novels or anything else. I'm actually a big science fiction fan. Love Philip K. Dick, J.G. Ballard and some 70s Robert Silverberg. We actually seem to be in perfect agreement, except regarding Outland. If you like having a liberal, non-rigid approach to genre, I can respect that. I do tend to be a little conservative when it comes to genre. Guess it comes from having seen a lot of genre movies before having read anything academic about the genres, so I developed my own well-educated (as far as quantity of films seen), but intuitive and sometimes subjective opinions about genre classification.

mickilennial
The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female
Age: 35
Location: Detroit

Quote:

If you like having a liberal, non-rigid approach to genre, I can respect that.

I don't. But I'm trying something new so others can get around to films that have western-esque trappings that people on BEA may have not seen.

Quote:

Don't know why you gave me a hard time

I'm unfortunately kind of a pedantic asshole. It's endearing, I promise.

CA Dreamin

Gender: Male
Location: LA

badseed wrote:

StreetSpirit wrote:

I think of Neo-Westerns as a separate genre. To me, what makes a film a Western is Frontier myth, how it creates a vision of a specific time and place in history before mass communication, transportation, and full colonization. It could be a romanticized or a deglamorized vision. But in Neo-Westerns, there isn't much (if any) Frontier myth. They take place in more recent times, when the frontier is closed because the West has been fully settled. And there isn't much myth to them either. I have a hard time calling No Country and Hell or High Water Westerns since they have more in common with Thelma and Louise, Fargo, and Gun Crazy than they do with Unforgiven or High Noon. But if everyone else includes them, I probably will too.

They're definitely about as far from the real thing as you can be but I don't see either style reaching a quality list of 100 without the other. Just do like I am (and have for most genre lists) by blending genre purity and film quality. For example I love There Will Be Blood more than any western ever but since it's not the most westerny western by a long shot it probably won't crack my top 50.

There we go about "genre purity" again. Same as in the horror and fantasy discussion. Yes, I agree Neo-Westerns are certainly not "pure Westerns." I even said they're a separate genre. However, the influence and the elements are there. However, a "pure Western" has to take place in Old West. I like to look to The Wild Bunch as the cutoff point. It's a brilliant, revolutionary film, but also a commentary on the genre itself. The film is about an aging gang of outlaws in 1914, whose Old Western ways have nearly disappeared. By 1914 the West is too settled, too civilized, too modern, and they're about to be caught by the authorities. So the only way they can continue their lifestyle and robberies is to leave the US for Mexico, where they get caught up in a revolution and civil war. And it's a poetic ending, how their Old Western values meet the modern world head-on in an unforgettable ending.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. The point is Wild Bunch is amazing, and it marks a cutoff of when the 'Old West' comes to an end...1914. So any film that takes place in the West after that date isn't 'a pure Western' in my book. Thus, they won't be given as high of consideration on my list.

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

ALSO: This is a decent documentary about the depiction of Native Americans in films if anyone is interested.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1484114/?ref_=ttls_li_tt

Ah yes, Reel Injun. Very good doc. Would be among my Top Documentaries if BEA ever did one (which I don't see happening).

PurpleHazel wrote:

I just hope the No Country for Old Men and some of the other contemporary movies won't push great classic westerns off the list just because more members have seen them and they're favorites of theirs.

Right on. Agreed. My guess is most Classic Westerns will be safe because 100 is a long list. Plenty of room.

badseed wrote:

You make lots of valid points (especially NCFOM being far more noirish than western). I wonder if I should just scrap this and rework it to 50 westerns and 50 war films. I still feel like 50 isn't enough but a great looking top 50 would look better than a scrambled mess of a top 100 where there are at least a dozen films that roughly half of us objected to include because we don't think it belongs while the other half included it just because it's all they've really seen. I was all for the "pick whatever" thing but something deep down has me thinking the whole idea of neo-westerns and space westerns is so subjective it's gonna swallow up many of the great true western films of the 50s just because they're far more seen, which in turn just weakens our list from a historical standpoint both in the future when we've seen far more stuff and also to anyone who lays eyes on it that might be a true connoisseur of the genre... Oh well, this is what I asked for. I guess I shouldn't expect a perfect list but I beg of everyone, please try to do a little watching of some essentials before this ends. If the likes of Johnny Guitar and The Gunfighter can't hit our top 100 while Spaceballs and Yojimbo do, we did it wrong.

I wouldn't worry. BEA is sensible enough to not put Spaceballs on this list. The final list will probably turn out like the horror list. It will mostly 'pure Westerns' of great quality. But there will some head-scratchers and some films whose Westerness is under scrutiny. And a few great ones will be left off due to underexposure.

PurpleHazel wrote:

I haven't seen any science fiction films that I'd consider Westerns.

Back to the Future 3?

Last edited by CA Dreamin on 04/26/2018 06:43; edited 1 time in total

PurpleHazel

StreetSpirit wrote:

Back to the Future 3?

Haha, that more or less fits the bill. I'd be a little sad, though, if that made the cut in either a Western OR Sci Fi poll!

mickilennial
The Most Trusted Name in News

Gender: Female
Age: 35
Location: Detroit

I think contributing to these lists is more about discussing things and exposing people to films they missed out on than it is debating genre purity and making a perfect list.