Best Ever Neo-Noir Films/Modern Film Noir [Poll] - Games

CA Dreamin

Gender: Male
Location: LA

If Classic Film Noir covers Maltese Falcon through Touch of Evil, and Neo-Noir is everything that came after, then Neo-Noir is much more encompassing. That Wikipedia list really lacks focus (eg. it lists Psycho, All the President's Men, Watchmen, and Zootopia?). I thought I knew what Neo-Noir was...'80s, and '90s Film Noir revival (eg. Body Heat, Bad Influence, Fatal Attraction, Angel Heart, Black Widow, Blue Velvet, etc). But now I'm not sure.

PurpleHazel

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I thought I knew what Neo-Noir was...'80s, and '90s Film Noir revival (eg. Body Heat, Bad Influence, Fatal Attraction, Angel Heart, Black Widow, Blue Velvet, etc). But now I'm not sure.

What you thought was neo-noir is correct -- Body Heat, Blue Velvet and Angel Heart are definitely some of the most representative -- though it didn't start in the 80s (just became more self-conscious) and didn't end with the 90s. Chinatown, The Friends of Eddie Coyle and The Driver are good examples of 70s neo-noir, and Memento, Mulholland Drive and Drive are good examples from the last two decades. Some lists -- official and otherwise -- stray more from the classic noir model than others -- you have to draw the line where you feel comfortable.

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That Wikipedia list really lacks focus (eg. it lists Psycho, All the President's Men, Watchmen, and Zootopia?).

Agreed. Tha1ChiefRocka was less diplomatic than you:

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

The wikipedia list is kind of shitty.

Assume that list was at least partly crowdsourced. You may find the list from Film Noir: The Encyclopedia I linked to in the 2nd post more satisfactory. Though it includes a few serial killer and sci-fi movies, the editors have been refining their list since at least 1992, so it's as about as focused as a 154-film neo-noir list can get:

https://letterboxd.com/bbbgtoby/list/fi...-neo-noir/

It ends in 2009, so I'd throw in Drive, Killer Joe, Nightcrawler, The Town, The Place Beyond the Pines and several others.

StreetSpirit wrote:

If Classic Film Noir covers Maltese Falcon through Touch of Evil, and Neo-Noir is everything that came after, then Neo-Noir is much more encompassing.

That was the original time-frame the critics set, though it's been extended a little over the years. Most lists at least go to 1959 to include Odds Against Tomorrow, and I'd add Blast of Silence, Underworld USA (1961), Cape Fear, Experiment in Terror (1962) and a few more. Stranger on the Third Floor (1940) is now considered an early entry. I'd add Fritz Lang's first two American films, Fury (1936) and You Only Live Once (1937; the first young-lovers-on-the-run movie?). IMDb goes back to 1927 and the noir encyclopedia used to.

Last edited by PurpleHazel on 06/19/2018 06:29; edited 2 times in total

bobbyb5

Gender: Male
Location: New York

StreetSpirit wrote:

If Classic Film Noir covers Maltese Falcon through Touch of Evil, and Neo-Noir is everything that came after, then Neo-Noir is much more encompassing. That Wikipedia list really lacks focus (eg. it lists Psycho, All the President's Men, Watchmen, and Zootopia?). I thought I knew what Neo-Noir was...'80s, and '90s Film Noir revival (eg. Body Heat, Bad Influence, Fatal Attraction, Angel Heart, Black Widow, Blue Velvet, etc). But now I'm not sure.

Exactly. That Wiki list is ridiculous. All the presidents men??? Was someone playing some sort of joke??? That list was too long by half. Not even half could even be considered Noir, even if noir had an exact definition. Which it doesn't.

bobbyb5

Gender: Male
Location: New York

PurpleHazel wrote:

L'Argent's an amazing choice. Did consider it for the foreign list I made, but wanted to keep it at 25 and wasn't sure anyone would vote for it. Going to have to add it to my list next time I revise it.

I saw it described as Neo Noir in a couple places. I didn't agree at first until I thought about it, and decided it fit better than a lot of the other ones describe as neo noir. It's a really awesome Movie too.

PurpleHazel

bobbyb5 wrote:

I saw it described as Neo Noir in a couple places. I didn't agree at first until I thought about it, and decided it fit better than a lot of the other ones describe as neo noir. It's a really awesome Movie too.

I didn't put it on that list because I wasn't sure either, but the last third of the movie does go into pitch-black Jim Thompson territory. A favorite of mine.

bobbyb5

Gender: Male
Location: New York

PurpleHazel wrote:

I didn't put it on that list because I wasn't sure either, but the last third of the movie does go into pitch-black Jim Thompson territory. A favorite of mine.

There's only like 3 or 4 times on my list where I stretched the definition. But I think with justification. With more justification than you can justify half the ones that turn up on some of the lists I've seen. Heh heh.

bobbyb5

Gender: Male
Location: New York

I decided to include my favorite movie of all time, even though I resist thinking of it as any kind of Noir. But it's mentioned so often as being one, and so influential, and is the ultimate young-lovers-on-the-run movie that I said what the fuck. The only question was whether Chinatown or The Long Goodbye or Bonnie and Clyde would be my Number One. They're all my favorite movie of all time. Ha ha.

CA Dreamin

Gender: Male
Location: LA

bobbyb5 wrote:

Exactly. That Wiki list is ridiculous. All the presidents men??? Was someone playing some sort of joke??? That list was too long by half. Not even half could even be considered Noir, even if noir had an exact definition. Which it doesn't.

You're right. Noir doesn't have an exact definition unlike our genre polls. My understanding of noir are these elements (I'm probably forgetting one or two):

1. An anti-hero protaganist
2. A Femme Fatale
3. Much of the film takes place at night, in a big city.
4. An overall dark narrative, usually crime and/or mystery
5. Doesn't have a happy ending, usually one or more major character deaths at the end
6. A distinct cinematography, low-key and high contrast.

Of course, a film doesn't need to have all 6 to be considered a noir, but having at least 4 helps it case. Some films on that Wikipedia list are a stretch by my understanding. And I'm not sure about some films I've seen on already submitted lists.

PurpleHazel wrote:

Some lists -- official and otherwise -- stray more from the classic noir model than others -- you have to draw the line where you feel comfortable.

Sure. That's how we've been doing it on our genre polls. 'If you feel it belongs, include it.' Again however, noir isn't a genre and doesn't have an exact definition, meaning thousands of films could be eligible, possibly leading to our final list looking all over the place. I think user participation has to be high for this have a stronger focus.

PurpleHazel

StreetSpirit wrote:

noir isn't a genre and doesn't have an exact definition

Whether noir's a genre, a style or a cycle's been the subject of debate for a long time, one I personally haven't found that useful. Many people do think it's a genre, some don't. Some genres don't have exact definitions, like horror. And as we discovered in the western poll, even when a genre appears to be well-defined at first glance, there's quite a bit of room for debate.

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My understanding of noir are these elements (I'm probably forgetting one or two):

1. An anti-hero protaganist
2. A Femme Fatale
3. Much of the film takes place at night, in a big city.
4. An overall dark narrative, usually crime and/or mystery
5. Doesn't have a happy ending, usually one or more major character deaths at the end
6. A distinct cinematography, low-key and high contrast.

Of course, a film doesn't need to have all 6 to be considered a noir, but having at least 4 helps it case.

Obviously the cinematography element doesn't apply to neo-noir, since practically all of them are in color (there are several color films in the classic period too). Though femme fatales and urban and nighttime settings are common elements, many classic noirs don't have them (there's even a term for noirs with a daytime setting, "sunshine noir").

My understanding is there has to be a crime, a dark tone and the main character is either an antihero, a hardboiled private detective, wrongfully accused or is being tormented by a criminal/unstable person. But other than those, you can always find well-known exceptions.

Elements that mean a film is most likely noir:

Criminal protagonist who isn't good deep down (Gangster films are their own genre)
Femme fatale
Deadly love triangle
Hardboiled private detective
Heist with bad consequences (no light "capers")
Hitman protagonist (no spy agency assassins)
Young lovers on the run
Boxer who is pressured to take a dive

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doesn't have an exact definition, meaning thousands of films could be eligible, possibly leading to our final list looking all over the place. I think user participation has to be high for this have a stronger focus.

I completely agree! Appreciate that you're discerning. Makes me look forward to your list!

badseed

Gender: Male
Age: 35
Location: FL

Just sitting back enjoying the discussions so far. I'm gonna do like I always do and put it there if I personally think it is qualified. To hell with what any other publication says. I've got two days off so if I get tired of playing on my new kayak I might throw something together. I think there's definitely some underrated and unmentioned stuff I ought to shine a light on.