Stereogum & Pitchfork 2018 charts: ridicolous - Music

RoundTheBend
I miss the comfort in being sad

Location: Ground Control

Tap wrote:

talking about music that does not appeal to you as being for the mindless mobs is textbook music snobbery. and hey there can be some value to that, there's an interview on the best show where tom scharpling talks to james murphy about how record store jerks saved their life, it's a really great listen. but in this case, describing interests people here may have as mindless can end up being considered hostile.

Can I get an Amen?

I hope this resolves nicely, like tritone to a major 3rd. Smile

Fischman
RockMonster, JazzMeister, Bluesboy,ClassicalMaster

Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

craola wrote:

Only if you're making them evaluate things on your terms, which defeats the purpose. I skimmed amazon and imdb ratings, and there were plenty of folks rating See Spot Run a 5-star film while giving "classics" 3s and 4s.

No, no, no, my man. Art is ENTIRELY subjective. There are some nurture involved, sure, that may impact certain demographics, but that doesn't detract from the subjectiveness of it all.

In traditional Kayan culture, unnaturally long necks are seen as attractive, so women stretch their necks to make them longer, causing permanent damage. Are long necks objectively more attractive? I've never thought so. In ancient Chinese culture, women wrapped their feet to try to make them small and sexy. My grandmother-in-law's feet were mutilated to meet this "objective" image of beauty that was prevalent at the time. Americans seem to think the big bosom is what it's all about. Whatever it is you see as objective is a facade. It's nurture.

If qualities of greatness in music was objective, it would all start to sound the same after a while, wouldn't it? If X+Y+Z=perfect, everyone would do that, but it's really not.

And then there's all these weird, nonsensical opinions that float around my head. Like, I think "rock-a-bye baby" is a GREAT song - a classic. I friggin hate "twinkle twinkle little star". No reason for it so far as I can tell....

But back to my own stretch of examples, I like to close my eyes and imagine how sexy a long-necked, heavy-chested woman with tiny feet would look. She wouldn't be able to stand up, head and breasts reaching for the ground with feet totally unable to support her. It does nothing for me. Something as basic as human attraction isn't even remotely universal in part because our culture indoctrinates us into thinking one thing is better than another.

So tell me,
Why do we never see See Spot Run in a literature appreciation class?
Are all those professors who know more about literature than you or me nothing more than elitist snobs?

And thank you for your reference to Kayan measures of attractiveness. By your own description, you've acknowledged that that particular feature is unhealthy. By any rational measure, that "taste" would be considered problematic, even inferior. So yes, taste, as subjective as it may be, may well have an aspect of quality attached to it.

Last edited by Fischman on 12/19/2018 15:01; edited 1 time in total

Fischman
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Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

Tap wrote:

talking about music that does not appeal to you as being for the mindless mobs is textbook music snobbery. and hey there can be some value to that, there's an interview on the best show where tom scharpling talks to james murphy about how record store jerks saved their life, it's a really great listen. but in this case, describing interests people here may have as mindless can end up being considered hostile.

You're still extrapolating here, and coming to false conclusions as a result.

The key you're missing is that I don't make such comments about all or any or even most music that doesn't appeal to me. So there's not a one for one correspondence between music I don't care for, and music against which I express a negative opinion.

if I just blindly lambasted anything I didn't like, then you might have a point. But that's not the case.

Skinny
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It must be strange to have such unshakeable faith in the idea that all your opinions are actually fact.
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Fischman
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Gender: Male
Location: Land of Enchantment

Skinny wrote:

It must be strange to have such unshakeable faith in the idea that all your opinions are actually fact.

It must be hard going through life making unfounded assumptions.

Skinny
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Fischman wrote:

It must be hard going through life making unfounded assumptions.

You'd know.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: Maryland

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Fischman wrote:

So tell me,
Why do we never see See Spot Run in a literature appreciation class?
Are all those professors who know more about literature than you or me nothing more than elitist snobs?

Because it's not a class specifically focused on appreciating children's literature? And are we talking about cultural significance or quality? Because it's sounding like you're talking about the former. And I mean, if The Hungry Caterpillar had more of an effect on you when you read it than The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, I think you're perfectly justified in saying "I think the Hungry Caterpillar is better than James Joyce."

I mean, you're reaching pretty hard here man.

But let's continue with the example and extrapolate it to movies - there are movies made for children that are also well-made movies (i.e. many Pixar films). Couldn't we appreciate Toy Story just as much as we appreciate Tarkovsky? Sure, of course we can.

You cannot objectively measure quality because everyone has different criteria of what is "good" and what is "bad."
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: Maryland

Moderator

I mean, I'd love to hear how you can empirically measure quality so as to determine what art is objectively of the highest quality.

We've been trying to solve this mystery since art started, so I'd love to hear the solution to a centuries-old problem.

What is, objectively, the greatest piece of art in history? I mean, if we can objectively judge art, there must be an answer to that question? I can tell you who threw the most touchdowns in NFL history, that's measurable, I can tell you who sold the most albums in music history, that's measurable, so if quality is measurable, then we should be able to truly, officially, empirically determine what actually is the greatest piece of art of all time. Or at least come up with a top five.
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baystateoftheart
Neil Young as a butternut squash

Age: 29
Location: Massachusetts

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I mean, I'd love to hear how you can empirically measure quality so as to determine what art is objectively of the highest quality.

We've been trying to solve this mystery since art started, so I'd love to hear the solution to a centuries-old problem.

What is, objectively, the greatest piece of art in history? I mean, if we can objectively judge art, there must be an answer to that question? I can tell you who threw the most touchdowns in NFL history, that's measurable, I can tell you who sold the most albums in music history, that's measurable, so if quality is measurable, then we should be able to truly, officially, empirically determine what actually is the greatest piece of art of all time. Or at least come up with a top five.

The Sistine Chapel, obviously Wink

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Fischman wrote:

You're still extrapolating here, and coming to false conclusions as a result.

The key you're missing is that I don't make such comments about all or any or even most music that doesn't appeal to me. So there's not a one for one correspondence between music I don't care for, and music against which I express a negative opinion.

if I just blindly lambasted anything I didn't like, then you might have a point. But that's not the case.

You don't have to do that to exhibit snobby behavior tho. You can have a quiet tolerance for all sorts of things that you hate, but once you start talking about mindless masses, you're invoking a superiority over some people.