Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week (2023) - Music Diaries

theredkrayola

What do you think are the best tracks on Whiskey for the Holy Ghost?

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

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Top 10+ Music, Movies, and Visual Art of the Week(s): 7-4-2022 - 7-17-2022
Guernica - Pablo Picasso (1937)
The Velvet Underground and Nico - The Velvet Underground (1966)
Laughing Stock - Talk Talk (1991)
Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
Daydream Nation - Sonic Youth (1988)
The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses (1989)
Greed - Erich Von Stroheim (1924) ...Studio cut, 140 min... Revisiting this, it seemed like approximately (somewhere between) 7.7-8.0, but this is still indefinite as it has been approximately 15 years since I've seen the studio cut in very good-to-HD quality. And, last I did, my rating was in an even higher range, above 8. So, for the time being I probably won't move it (maybe marginally), but this viewing was not definite enough to make any major decisions off of. Its visuals, quite suggestive, with emotional/thematic development and symbolism/metaphor in every scene, through its facial expressions, states of the characters, gestures, interiors, backgrounds/environments, are of course somewhat mitigated in impact with a blurred or lowered quality of resolution. So, in part, while watching now (in lesser quality), I am relying on my memory of its visuals (in higher quality) to inform what I am seeing in the present, and this presents a challenge in determining its rating now. Hopefully, Criterion (or whoever) will release a HQ version of the studio cut SOON (please tell me they're not waiting until the 2024, 100th anniversary??? Although this would be entirely justified if they shocked us all by finding the lost footage for the original cut or something close -- like what happened some years back with Metropolis!!!).
Murmur - REM (1983)
Yerself is Steam - Mercury Rev (1991)
Perfect From Now On - Built To Spill (1997)
Skylarking - XTC (1986)
Younger Than Yesterday - The Byrds (1966)
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - The Beatles (1967)
The Lady Vanishes - Alfred Hitchcock (1938)
OK Computer - Radiohead (1997)
Exodus - Bob Marley and the Wailers (1977)
Abbey Road - The Beatles (1969)
Mr. Tambourine Man - The Byrds (1965)

Top 10+ Albums/Movies/Visual Art for the Week(s) - Rated 2.8/10 to 6.7/10
Bringing it All Back Home - Bob Dylan (1965)
Odessey and Oracle - The Zombies (1967)
Fifth Dimension - The Byrds (1966)
Magical Mystery Tour - The Beatles (1967)
The Pursuit of Happyness - Gabriele Muccino (2006)
Revolver - The Beatles (1966)
Rubber Soul - The Beatles (1965)
The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Bob Dylan (1963)
Hustle - Jeremiah Zagar (2022)
The Beatles [aka, "The White Album"] - The Beatles (1968)
Automatic for the People - REM (1992)
A Rush of Blood to the Head - Coldplay (2002)
Love Actually - Richard Curtis (2003)
Nashville Skyline - Bob Dylan (1969)
Elvis Presley - Elvis Presley (1956)
Elvis - Elvis Presley (1956)

FAMILIAR SONGS/TRACKS/MOVEMENTS - RE-RATED:
Hotel Overture - Carla Bley - Escalator Over the Hill - Track #1 (1972) 6.5/10 to 7.1/10
Velvet Waltz - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #5 (1997) Not Rated to 7.0/10
After the Flood - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #3 (1991) Not Rated to 7.0/10
Total Trash - Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Track #6 (1988) 6.8/10 to 7.0/10
I Am the Resurrection - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #11 (1989) Not Rated to 7.0/10
Taphead - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #4 (1991) Not Rated to 6.5/10
This Is the One - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #10 (1989) Not Rated to 6.4/10
Teen Age Riot - Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Track #1 (1988) 6.1 to 6.3/10
Rain King - Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Track #10 (1988) 6.0/10 to 6.3/10
Myrrhman - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #1 (1991) Not Rated to 6.3/10
Inheritance - Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden - Track #4 (1988) 6.1/10 to 6.3/10
Wealth - Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden - Track #6 (1988) 6.1/10 to 6.3/10
New Grass - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #5 (1991) Not Rated to 6.2/10
I Would Hurt a Fly - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #2 (1997) Not Rated to 6.2/10
Randy Described Eternity - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #1 (1997) Not Rated to 6.2/10
Made of Stone - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #8 (1989) Not Rated to 6.2/10
Ascension Day - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #2 (1991) Not Rated to 6.1/10
Out of Site - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #6 (1997) Not Rated to 6.1/10
Made-Up Dreams - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #4 (1997) Not Rated to 6.1/10
Perfect - Alanis Morissette - Jagged Little Pill - Track #3 (1995) 6.4/10 to 6.0/10
Untrustable / Part 2 (About Someone Else) - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #8 (1997) Not Rated to 6.0/10
Stop the Show - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #3 (1997) Not Rated to 5.9/10
Don't Stop - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #4 (1989) Not Rated to 5.8/10
Candle - Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Track #9 (1988) 5.5/10 to 5.7/10
Tomorrow Never Knows - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #14 (1966) Not Rated to 5.7/10
A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #6 (1963) Not Rated to 5.6/10
Runeii - Talk Talk - Laughing Stock - Track #6 (1991) Not Rated to 5.6/10
Blowin' in the Wind - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #1 (1963) Not Rated to 5.5/10
Kissability - Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation - Track #11 (1988) 5.1/10 to 5.5/10
I Wanna Be Adored - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #1 (1989) Not Rated to 5.5/10
(Song for My) Sugar Spun Sister - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #7 (1989) Not Rated to 5.5/10
She Bangs the Drums - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #2 (1989) Not Rated to 5.5/10
Waterfall - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #3 (1989) Not Rated to 5.5/10
Kicked it in the Sun - Built To Spill - Perfect From Now On - Track #7 (1997) Not Rated to 5.4/10
Masters of War - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #3 (1963) Not Rated to 5.3/10
Bye Bye Badman - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #5 (1989) Not Rated to 5.3/10
Girl From the North Country - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #2 (1963) Not Rated to 5.2/10
Don't Think Twice, It's All Right - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #7 (1963) Not Rated to 5.1/10
Shoot You Down - The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses - Track #9 (1989) Not Rated to 5.1/10
I'm Only Sleeping - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #3 (1966) Not Rated to 5.0/10
...Baby One More Time - Britney Spears - ...Baby One More Time - Track #1 (1998) 4.7/10 to 4.8/10
Love You Too - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #4 (1966) Not Rated to 4.4/10
Norwegian Wood - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #2 (1965) 4.2/10 to 4.4/10
Yellow Submarine - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #6 (1966) Not Rated to 4.4/10
Nowhere Man - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #4 (1965) 4.2 to 4.3/10
In My Life - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #11 (1965) 4.0/10 to 4.3/10
Eleanor Rigby - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #2 (1966) Not Rated to 4.3/10
Taxman - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #1 (1966) Not Rated to 4.2/10
She Said - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #7 (1966) Not Rated to 4.1/10
And Your Bird Can Sing - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #9 (1966) Not Rated to 4.1/10
Run For Your Life - The Beatles - Rubber - Track #14 (1965) 3.8 to 4.0/10
If I Needed Someone - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #13 (1965) 3.2/10 to 4.0/10
Bob Dylan's Dream - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #8 (1963) Not Rated to 4.0/10
I Shall Be Free - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #13 (1963) Not Rated to 3.9/10
Talkin' World War III Blues - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #10 (1963) Not Rated to 3.9/10
(You Drive Me) Crazy - Britney Spears - ...Baby One More Time - Track #2 (1998) 3.5/10 to 3.9/10
You Won't See Me - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #3 (1965) 3.0 to 3.8/10
Think for Yourself - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #5 (1965) 3.1 to 3.8/10
The Word - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #6 (1965) 3.4 to 3.8/10
Down the Highway - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #4 (1963) Not Rated to 3.8/10
For No One - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #10 (1966) Not Rated to 3.7/10
Wait - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #12 (1965) 3.3/10 to 3.6/10
Doctor Robert - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #11 (1966) Not Rated to 3.6/10
Got to Get You into My Life - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #13 (1966) Not Rated to 3.6/10
I Want to Tell You - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #12 (1966) Not Rated to 3.5/10
Bob Dylan's Blues - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #5 (1963) Not Rated to 3.3/10
Good Day Sunshine - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #8 (1966) Not Rated to 3.3/10
I'm Looking Through You - The Beatles - Rubber Soul - Track #10 (1965) 2.9/10 to 3.1/10
Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #12 (1963) Not Rated to 3.1/10
Corrina, Corrina - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #11 (1963) Not Rated to 3.1/10
Here, There and Everywhere - The Beatles - Revolver - Track #5 (1966) Not Rated to 3.1/10
Oxford Town - Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - Track #9 (1963) Not Rated to 3.0/10

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FAMILIAR FILMS - RE-RATED:
The Lady Vanishes - Alfred Hitchcock (1938) Not Rated to 7.1/10

NEWLY WATCHED FILMS - RATED:
The Pursuit of Happyness - Gabriele Muccino (2006) 5.7/10
Hustle - Jeremiah Zagar (2022) 5.2/10
Love Actually - Richard Curtis (2003) 4.8/10

FAMILIAR PAINTINGS/VISUAL ART - RE-RATED:
Guernica - Pablo Picasso (1937) 8.6/10 to 8.8/10

TOP 50 WORKS OF ART OF THE YEAR (2022)
Sistine Chapel: Ceiling and The Last Judgment - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541)
Lorca - Tim Buckley (1970)
Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974)
St. Peter's Basilica - Michelangelo Buonarroti, Donato Bramante, Carlo Maderno and Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1626) [Architecture]
Brazil - Terry Gilliam (1985) [The Final Cut, 142 minutes]
The Beethoven Frieze - Gustav Klimt (1902)
Citizen Kane - Orson Welles (1941)
Spiderland - Slint (1991)
Persona - Ingmar Bergman (1966)
North by Northwest - Alfred Hitchcock (1959)
Guernica - Pablo Picasso (1937)
Desertshore - Nico (1970)
In the Aeroplane Over the Sea - Neutral Milk Hotel (1997)
The Velvet Underground and Nico - The Velvet Underground (1966)
Daydream Nation - Sonic Youth (1988)
Piano Sonata No. 20 in A Major - Franz Schubert (1828)
Isenheim Altarpiece - Matthias Grunewald [includes sculpture by Nikolaus Hagenauer] (circa 1512-1516)
The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa - Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1652) [Sculpture and Architecture]
The Gates of Hell - Auguste Rodin (1889 "Expressionist" Version) [Sculpture]
Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822)
Marquee Moon - Television (1977)
The Doors - The Doors (1966)
Blue - Joni Mitchell (1971)
Touch of Evil - Orson Welles (1958)
Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
Symphony No. 6 in A minor "Tragic" - Gustav Mahler (1904; 1906)
Les Demoiselles d'Avignon - Pablo Picasso (1907)
Europe After The Rain II - Max Ernst (1942)
Piano Sonata in B Minor - Franz Liszt (1853)
Sandham Memorial Chapel: The Resurrection of the Soldiers & War Murals - Stanley Spencer (1929)
Violin Concertos Nos. 1-4, "The Four Seasons" - Antonio Vivaldi (1723)
Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1884)
Symphony No. 8 in B Minor "Unfinished" - Franz Schubert (1822)
Piano Sonata No. 23 in F Minor "Appassionata" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1805)
The Sacrifice - Andrei Tarkovsky (1986)
St. Matthew Cycle: The Calling of St. Matthew; The Inspiration of St. Matthew; The Martyrdom of St. Matthew - Michelangelo Caravaggio (1602)
The Last Supper - Leonardo Da Vinci (1497)
Y - The Pop Group (1979)
Piano Sonata No. 30 in E Major - Ludwig van Beethoven (1820)
It's Such a Beautiful Day - Don Hertzfeldt (2012)
Apollo and Daphne - Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1625) [Sculpture]
Medici Chapel: The Sagrestia Nuova - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1555) [Sculpture and Architecture]
I Lie Here Buried With My Rings and My Dresses - Backxwash (2021)
Early Bourgeois Revolution in Germany - Werner Tubke (1987) [aka, "Peasants' War Panorama"]
Jagged Little Pill - Alanis Morissette (1995)
Pieta - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1499)
David - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1504)
Moses - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1515)
Strange Days - The Doors (1967)
The Entire City [Zurich Version] - Max Ernst (1936)
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Last edited by AfterHours on 07/18/2022 18:02; edited 29 times in total

TiggaTrigga

AfterHours wrote:

TiggaTrigga wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Daydream Nation has been added now.

Ratings aren't final and infact just a day before I would've rated many of them an avg of 0.2 higher. So they may still change some as I continue to add and compare more entries.

How would you describe Total Trash?

And...what is the emotional expression of The Sprawl, particularly its mellow outro that starts around 4 mins in that gradually mutates back into their typical noisy sound? I don't know what to make of it. Same question for 'Cross the Breeze. I'm very fascinated by these 2 songs, but I can't put the pieces together to what they're musically trying to say.

Throughout DN they're using unusual tunings and harmonic combinations that fluctuate, grow, recede, between murky, "suggested/vague" melody but also juxtaposed or soon after transforming into dissonance (or vice versa), as if searching for a magical balance between noise and melody. Teenage Riot begins as an introduction that probably expresses the most exact, "equal" balance between these "contradictions", battling, "harmonized", fused.

These two ends, fused yet conflicted, breaking apart then re-joining, symbolizes something of a moral conflict, where the songs become "frescoes" of moral decay and conflict, being contemplated and/or agonized over in anxieties of frustration, often violent or wrestling within itself, agonizing over various observations or difficult experiences, or even sexual frustration/yearning, drug trips, angry laments (and the like).

The Sprawl probably comes the closest to what might be "contemplating itself morally", breaking apart into an extended dissonant (but "gentle") daydreaming (instrumental) stream of consciousness (with anguished, anxiety-ridden, almost suspenseful insides).

Many of the songs begin closer to melody, contemplating themselves, daydreaming, before erecting a fresco of turmoil or violence, etc

Cross the Breeze begins this way before furiously taking on stormy guitars and drums that metamorphosize back into "melody", resolving itself after a few, increasingly alarming/suspenseful and ferocious work outs of said guitars, percussion. Gordon, provocative/angry/virulent/punk spirit (basically a punk rendition of Dylan circa Hwy 61 where the vocals are spitfires of observations/experiences, symbolic, surreal) gets increasingly intense as the attack wears on. After this attack, the noise wiped away, the music devolves back into a contemplative/daydreaming "melodic" outro.

Total Trash combines vocals that hark back to Lou Reed, delivering a slightly melodic, quite "decadent and detached" vocal register, among a storm of incisive guitars and percussion that begins persistently and rhythmically in concert with the vocals but after a number of rounds gets increasingly confused and murky upon itself, the vocals dropping out as everything becomes violent, eventually imploding into a seemingly auto-determined chaos.

The murky sound-world in general, taking its cue from The Velvet Underground, no doubt resurrects its distorted lense as if trying to see through the grip and visage of drugs, metaphor for a "daydream nation" that is too asleep to see what's happening.

As with The Velvet Underground and Nico (perhaps the greatest, most profound masterpiece of "anxiety" in the history of Art?), but closer emotionally and in its furious spirit to the last half of WL/WH, Daydream Nation is constantly in an emotional/moral anxiety as well, only more "punk", more "desperate", more embellished, more violent, at war and conflict with itself, trying to find its moral compass through unsettling, dreamy, volatile soundscapes.

This is definitely the most vivid description of Daydream Nation's music I've read -- thank you! This describes what's going on with the music more than what Scaruffi said about it IMO.

"Throughout DN they're using unusual tunings and harmonic combinations that fluctuate, grow, recede, between murky, "suggested/vague" melody but also juxtaposed or soon after transforming into dissonance (or vice versa), as if searching for a magical balance between noise and melody."

Could this also apply to the music in Loveless from My Bloody Valentine? Or heck...noise-rock in general?

homelessking

Now that you've updated the track ratings for Black Saint, shouldn't its rating be higher? It's weird seeing it rated lower than Lorca while having better track ratings

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

theredkrayola wrote:

What do you think are the best tracks on Whiskey for the Holy Ghost?

I'd have to revisit it while paying attention to track titles to be sure, but if I'm remembering correctly, I think it was #2, #5, #6? With #2 perhaps being at the top. It's been a couple years, I think, since I revisited though, so no guarantees that would hold today. Maybe I'll check it out during this round of revisits/track ratings.
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AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

TiggaTrigga wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

TiggaTrigga wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Daydream Nation has been added now.

Ratings aren't final and infact just a day before I would've rated many of them an avg of 0.2 higher. So they may still change some as I continue to add and compare more entries.

How would you describe Total Trash?

And...what is the emotional expression of The Sprawl, particularly its mellow outro that starts around 4 mins in that gradually mutates back into their typical noisy sound? I don't know what to make of it. Same question for 'Cross the Breeze. I'm very fascinated by these 2 songs, but I can't put the pieces together to what they're musically trying to say.

Throughout DN they're using unusual tunings and harmonic combinations that fluctuate, grow, recede, between murky, "suggested/vague" melody but also juxtaposed or soon after transforming into dissonance (or vice versa), as if searching for a magical balance between noise and melody. Teenage Riot begins as an introduction that probably expresses the most exact, "equal" balance between these "contradictions", battling, "harmonized", fused.

These two ends, fused yet conflicted, breaking apart then re-joining, symbolizes something of a moral conflict, where the songs become "frescoes" of moral decay and conflict, being contemplated and/or agonized over in anxieties of frustration, often violent or wrestling within itself, agonizing over various observations or difficult experiences, or even sexual frustration/yearning, drug trips, angry laments (and the like).

The Sprawl probably comes the closest to what might be "contemplating itself morally", breaking apart into an extended dissonant (but "gentle") daydreaming (instrumental) stream of consciousness (with anguished, anxiety-ridden, almost suspenseful insides).

Many of the songs begin closer to melody, contemplating themselves, daydreaming, before erecting a fresco of turmoil or violence, etc

Cross the Breeze begins this way before furiously taking on stormy guitars and drums that metamorphosize back into "melody", resolving itself after a few, increasingly alarming/suspenseful and ferocious work outs of said guitars, percussion. Gordon, provocative/angry/virulent/punk spirit (basically a punk rendition of Dylan circa Hwy 61 where the vocals are spitfires of observations/experiences, symbolic, surreal) gets increasingly intense as the attack wears on. After this attack, the noise wiped away, the music devolves back into a contemplative/daydreaming "melodic" outro.

Total Trash combines vocals that hark back to Lou Reed, delivering a slightly melodic, quite "decadent and detached" vocal register, among a storm of incisive guitars and percussion that begins persistently and rhythmically in concert with the vocals but after a number of rounds gets increasingly confused and murky upon itself, the vocals dropping out as everything becomes violent, eventually imploding into a seemingly auto-determined chaos.

The murky sound-world in general, taking its cue from The Velvet Underground, no doubt resurrects its distorted lense as if trying to see through the grip and visage of drugs, metaphor for a "daydream nation" that is too asleep to see what's happening.

As with The Velvet Underground and Nico (perhaps the greatest, most profound masterpiece of "anxiety" in the history of Art?), but closer emotionally and in its furious spirit to the last half of WL/WH, Daydream Nation is constantly in an emotional/moral anxiety as well, only more "punk", more "desperate", more embellished, more violent, at war and conflict with itself, trying to find its moral compass through unsettling, dreamy, volatile soundscapes.

This is definitely the most vivid description of Daydream Nation's music I've read -- thank you! This describes what's going on with the music more than what Scaruffi said about it IMO.

"Throughout DN they're using unusual tunings and harmonic combinations that fluctuate, grow, recede, between murky, "suggested/vague" melody but also juxtaposed or soon after transforming into dissonance (or vice versa), as if searching for a magical balance between noise and melody."

Could this also apply to the music in Loveless from My Bloody Valentine? Or heck...noise-rock in general?

Thanks, to be fair, Scaruffi's review assisted me with the album way-back-whenever (plus double checking its points upon misc revisits here and there over the years) so I don't know how "worthy" mine is in being "better" described being that it has the advantage of using and building off what he already wrote. And, in all honesty, after looking at his review, my points pretty much just recap his really ... Only I guess I just add a little more to tie the moral point and some other details he alludes to in (more specifically) with how this is being expressed musically/conceptually/emotionally. Which I figured in replying and based on your question was the key to what was needed.

I give Scaruffi the benefit of the doubt because he has written thousands of reviews and obviously can't afford (time wise) to go into great detail in all of them (especially if you add in cinema, literature, other activities and art) and would be especially silly to expect him to do so with artists he doesn't care about (like Britney Spears etc). He is often concise also because he doesn't really have to add much more than that. But even more so, I think he is banking or hoping that the reader has or will follow his or a similar progression of listening in more or less historical order. For instance, he probably writes about Sonic Youth assuming someone has or should've listened to and assimilated Velvet Underground/noise rock and others. So he doesn't recap those points so much but simply states of alludes to them without explaining in any further detail. But, for instance, The VU page goes into great detail, and the Sonic Youth page can simply be considered (from a historical angle) less descriptive because it is building off (artistically, historically) those points that have already been made by The VU. I have an advantage of having (in many cases) followed a similar "Scaruffist" progression (or have often made up for it when I didn't) and having gone through whatever difficulties a listener is most likely to run into in trying to 'get' the work, so there is a solid chance I'll have a decent idea of what detail might need to be added that was omitted (because I myself ran into something similar at some point, and knowing the "progression" decently enough, can spot this and possibly add it into an explanation).

There are similar common denominators with much noise rock (as is often the case with other genres/subgenres and their expressive intent), but I wouldn't get "too" lazy with thinking they are completely similar. Sure, Loveless has ties to Sonic Youth's Daydream Nation, probably Dinosaur Jr (such as You're Living All Over Me) and probably Jesus and Mary Chain (Psychocandy), but certainly lays it's own ground as well. But yes, noise rock is often expressing or tied to various themes/emotions such as those; at the same time, should be listened to each as its own to be sure and also because variations upon such themes/concepts/emotions are different with different artists. But can probably be used as a general foundational "thesis" in many cases, and then just work your way from there for the nuances/differences/specifics.
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Last edited by AfterHours on 07/06/2022 01:36; edited 1 time in total

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

homelessking wrote:

Now that you've updated the track ratings for Black Saint, shouldn't its rating be higher? It's weird seeing it rated lower than Lorca while having better track ratings

It's not often quite as black and white as it can appear just looking at the track ratings.

First thing is that, especially when the overall ratings are close, usually the album with more tracks is going to appear to have the lesser avg track rating simply because the overall accumulated quality is being spread out over more parts.

But it's usually more accurate to look more closely at how much quality is being accumulated per time in comparing them. This isn't necessarily always so black and white either but in most cases will draw one closer to the truer picture. And with Lorca and Black Saint being very close in overall running time, it's pretty workable in its case. For instance, in comparing their best tracks, Lorca (the title track) is already a 7.8 in just over half the time it takes Black Saint to reach an 8 with it's final track ("only" 0.2 more yet taking 8-9 min longer). So things even out a lot more between the two after that but quality per unit of time can be an important indication, and just those 9-10 min where Lorca gets a big jump between the two can be enough to explain the difference between a 9.1 and a 9.0.

Remember that track 4 of Black Saint is taking up a full half of the album, so a more fair comparison would be combining Lorca and Anonymous Prop as "one", as it's own "half" (or slightly less really) to get more equalized between the two (plus taking each down to 4 more or less equal "parts" based on relative running times). Lorca is probably an 8.2, 8.3 or 8.4 after those two tracks. So now the track comparison is much much closer.

The other point that complicates just a black and white track comparison is that Black Saint is not "developing" as much as Lorca. I don't mean that it is doing poorly here, just that Lorca (the album) is marking newer creative ground with each new track more so than Mingus' masterpiece, which is coming closer to repeating itself by being more variations upon similar themes than marking newer ground with each track. This is a point I am still working on explaining better so hopefully the gist is getting across...

For an extreme example, think of an album that simply has Sister Ray on it twice, just repeated, each exactly the same. It would of course not "accumulate" the same as two different (but not too dissimilar or disparate) 8.6s normally could (which could, per my ratings scale, accumulate as high as 9.5 or 9.6/10 or so). But in this case would probably just remain an 8.6 or maybe slightly higher (might make an interesting test some day!). This is not so much just "because I say so" but, by actual test, would prove to be a bit of a letdown, the band simply repeating itself, the same song over again, and on the repeat of SR would lose it's initial lustre and excitement. Yet the track ratings would, in such an imaginary case, still be 8.6 + 8.6. And the overall rating too, would probably be ... 8.6 ... or maybe a little higher.

That's just to show the extreme end of such a spectrum.

It's hard to say exactly where Black Snt falls on that spectrum but it's two halves (track 1-3 / track 4) don't lay as much continuously creative/new ground as Lorca and thus, overall, "accumulates" a bit less in relation to its individual track ratings, than Lorca does.

There is a "sweet spot" one might say, where the great, creative, visionary artist is trying, particularly with a concept album/work, to BOTH develop creatively from moment to moment, track to track, AND, fuse its parts together well enough to where they accumulate well from one to the next (usually meaning they share key characteristics that they seem to stem from the same or similar source of inspiration/aims) but ALSO do not repeat/cover the same or overly similar ground too much. Lorca gets closer to this than Black Saint, so "accumulates" a little more track to track, and this may be enough to lift it above the other, even if the tracks ratings are similar or even if Black Snt might have a slightly higher avg even after the above exercise (of combining title track and AP to compare more fairly to Black Snt track 4 and then each half in relation to each other).

The above is not meant as a perfect or final explanation of these factors. They are still being "tested" and evaluated and hopefully will be more clearly explained in the future (such as on my criteria page). If anyone wants to chime in on such ideas I'm all for it.

(DelBoca and I have been discussing and comparing such ideas for years, off and on, mostly via PM... But more POVs on this could be of value)
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Last edited by AfterHours on 07/05/2022 23:16; edited 3 times in total

AfterHours

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Edit...

^^^ The above points are only the case for why Lorca is or would be higher than Black Snt given their track ratings, which I am not guaranteeing is accurate. At this point I would only say that Lorca being above it is only slightly more likely than not. But for years I had Black Snt just above or at the same rating, or 0.1-0.3 above Lorca. It is a more recent outcome that Lorca is superior and more time/revisits will either solidify that or maybe not. I've also been (mostly) away from jazz for longer than normal, and that could be influencing things in Lorca's direction for the time being.
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theredkrayola

What are the best songs on When Obscenity Becomes the Norm by Angkor Wat?

AfterHours

Gender: Male
Location: originally from scaruffi.com ;-)

theredkrayola wrote:

What are the best songs on When Obscenity Becomes the Norm by Angkor Wat?

Don't know, I don't recall ever rating or ranking that one. I've probably only listened to it once years ago. What do you think are the best ones?
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