Racism - Politics & Religion - Forums : Best Ever Albums

19loveless91
mag. druž. inf

It's not strictly speaking politics or religion, but it's a bit heavier topic, so I put it here.

This is a discussion that started between me and an_outlaw in the comment section of Public Enemy's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (will just quote all of the comments so I won't miss anything). Others please join in Smile

itsit wrote:

overrated, boring, racist dreck.

an_outlaw wrote:

No itsit. Racism is institutionalized and part of the system. The oppressed can't be "racist" to the oppressors. Basically, what you're saying can't be right which ever way you cut it.

19loveless91 wrote:

I don't follow... Blacks can't be racist? Women can't be sexist? What's going on here?

(having said that, when I listened to this album I never sensed any racism)

an_outlaw wrote:

I'm not sure I have the full capacity of words to put across the reasons here (and I should probably leave it after this message before it goes offtopic into a conversation worthy of the forum) but yes, the oppressed can't "oppress" the oppressors. And society pretty much everywhere is not on equal footing in 2012. I know what is on this album can't be considered racism.

19loveless91 wrote:

Who is the "oppressed" and who the "oppressors" though? Last I've heard there was 1% of oppressors that were oppressing the rest of us. Now I certainly don't have the money or power to belong into the "elite" group, but there are non-white people who have it. Can I thus speak anything that comes to my mind to them, talking about how my race is superior, just because they technically speaking have the power over me? And another thing that bugs me.. The "system". What is "the system"? Who belongs there?
There are injustices in the world when it comes to races, but that doesn't mean that "all whites" are better off than blacks or are at fault for these injustices. I certainly don't feel at fault for what groups of people of my race did (and are still doing) to people of other races. Should I?!

I don't see the lyrics here to be racist because I think they're criticizing specific groups of people (media, radio, government) who are according to Chuck's belief at fault for these injustices; they're not putting all white people (as a race) at fault and they're not putting this criticism as a base for believing in the superiority of the black race or discrimination of other races

Then again it's been a while since I last heard this album.

P.S. if you want we can open a new thread in the forums, though I think this does relate to the album's lyrics which is why I wrote this here.

an_outlaw wrote:

Racism is ingrained into the fabric of society, basically much of the world around me and you. It doesn't make a difference how much money you have. A non-white person with money and power is still part of the oppressed because of the ideals in the world around them. They would get by a lot better than people worst off though. However, the fact they are given so much money and power does not change the fact the inequality and Racism still exists. Relating to Public Enemy, pointing out that black people are oppressed in modern society and get a raw deal does not make them racist. If they were to attack "all white people" as not giving a damn about their plight, while it will be a generalization, it isn't racism. Racism is not something the oppressed can be accused of. When I say oppressed in relation to races I mean people who don't have 'white privilege'. Really, they could be inconsiderate or careless with their words... but racist? Public Enemy couldn't be accused of that. I may not have answered all that you said last time in an effort to keep this message shorter. If you put up a thread I will be happy to go through your last comment again. Best if we didn't carry on here. otherwise topic will move away from album.

There's two things that bothered me here:
you're referring only to our, "western" society. But that doesn't cover the whole world. There are dictators in Africa, Sheikhs in Middle East, that are also non-white, and hold significant amount of power (and you can definitely say for some of those people that they are the oppressors in their society). Would you still say the same about them - "that they are oppressed because of ideals around them"?

The other thing is, that what you write is from a very "functionalistic" perspective (I think that's what it's called) - the society shapes us, the way we think, the way we are, etc. It is true of course, but the problem I have here is that this perspective ignores the fact that the "society" is an entity, which is "constructed" and shaped by people (basically it's a sort of a vicious cycle). If you allow one race to claim themselves to be superior than the other (and again, I don't think those lyrics are like that, but as said - just pointing out the injustices that are still present and criticizing specific groups of people that are at fault for them), then it can become quite dangerous. Previously it was the whites that were doing that, ie. "legitimizing" this kind of thought of one race being superior to the other, but things like that are not something that is set in stone. Society changes, "rules" change, after all, no matter what you say, you can't say the situation for black people, even if solely looking at the western society, is as bad as it was. And this kind of generalization (as in - blacks are oppressed by whites, so it's OK for them to say whatever to (all?) whites) can turn it the other way around.

P. S.
right now I have to study, fittingly stuff that is not so much different to what we are discussing, I'll come back later...
[size=9](edited for a few details; now I'm really going to study Very Happy

)

Last edited by 19loveless91 on 02/14/2012 18:29; edited 1 time in total

alelsupreme
Awful.

Gender: Male
Age: 27

In the album they reference Louis Farrankh and praise him quite a bit. Loius is an incredibly racist prick.

(I don't think PE as a whole are racist, they might of been back then but they aren't now)

Bork
Executive Hillbilly

Location: Vinson Mountain, GA

Racism, in short, is give one group of people a worse treatment than another group of people based on their race and sexism is the same thing but based on sex. From that follows that members of a traditionally oppressed group can be just as racist or sexist as those of the privileged group.

That is also the point where equal rights groups often go wrong and become unpalatable. When their purpose becomes the advancement of their group at the expense of the other, often with the motivation that we have been at disadvantage for so long so it's only fair that the privileged group now becomes oppressed, they are no longer equal rights groups. They have instead become selfish us against them groups and lose all moral claims for their cause.

In the end, the fight against racism or sexism is not won until those issues stop becoming issues. That is why for instance banning the use of certain words is counter-productive.

A bit of rambling there. Interesting subject though and an issue that requires a load of work still.

Norman Bates

Gender: Male
Age: 51
Location: Paris, France

Bork wrote:

Racism, in short, is give one group of people a worse treatment than another group of people based on their race

No. Racism is believing in the existence of several human races. From what I know (very little I admit), this has never been proved and is still subject of debate.

gussteivi

Racism? Personally, I'm against it.

But I don't see any poll on this thread?
I'd suggest that the options are: "good" or "bad".

Maybe a third option for: "depends on the situation" could be added too.

I apologize for this inappropriate post on a serious and important matter. I couldn't help myself.

Kiki

No, you can't use leaders in countries such as Africa or the Middle East to justify Racism against people in places such as North America and Europe (where we are to the best of my knowledge). I really should have mentioned that to begin with. Public Enemy are from the USA which is why I was focusing on the western world. It doesn't make them any less oppressed because some dictator is ruling a piece of land half the world away. And the attitudes of the USA have ingrained much more deeper in most African countries than... say the attitudes of Angola in the USA.

The main message through the western world + media is that the straight white non-trans male is king. Anyone that doesn't meet those values will be oppressed. That is what the system upholds. It mostly made up of straight white non-trans men who hold these ideas as the standard for society. Basically, the system can be anything you want it. Anything that abides by these rules.

Anyone claiming that one race is "superior" is wrong. HOWEVER, as things stand, people are not equal. It is another example of Racism to dismiss the oppressed as wanting to be "superior".

There is white privilege to take into account too. Saying it was bad in the past but not as bad now is no way to go about it. Equality has yet to be achieved as society is still racist.

Racism still exists.

For denying that the injustices do not exist, the white person easily becomes part of the problem. It's a white privilege.

Kiki

Bork wrote:

Racism, in short, is give one group of people a worse treatment than another group of people based on their race and sexism is the same thing but based on sex. From that follows that members of a traditionally oppressed group can be just as racist or sexist as those of the privileged group.

That is also the point where equal rights groups often go wrong and become unpalatable. When their purpose becomes the advancement of their group at the expense of the other, often with the motivation that we have been at disadvantage for so long so it's only fair that the privileged group now becomes oppressed, they are no longer equal rights groups. They have instead become selfish us against them groups and lose all moral claims for their cause.

In the end, the fight against racism or sexism is not won until those issues stop becoming issues. That is why for instance banning the use of certain words is counter-productive.

A bit of rambling there. Interesting subject though and an issue that requires a load of work still.

Racism is part of the system... hegemony is you like. They may not be the right word but you get the idea.

Equal rights groups can be mean spirited, make inconsiderate demands or selfish. But they can not be racist, sexist or anything else simply because they are the oppressed.

There are people who want equality and to get rid of Racism that still prevails in society. These people are not trying to "oppress" the privileged group, they simply want equality that is still being denied. They are the same people who will dissaprove and argue against the straw people within their own orginazation who think their group should be the new privllaged ones.

And banning the use of words counter-productive??? Shocked

Don't go there.

Jackwc
Queen Of The Forums

Location: Aaaanywhere Sex: Incredible

I like Public Enemy, but they're horribly racist. In the same light, I love the works of Richard Wagner even though he was a horrible, Nazi cunt. Black people can still be racist. Any race has the capacity to be racist, and just because they themselves are oppressed doesn't make it right - racism is wrong no matter how it's used or by who.

Now, onto the topic of "banning" words - that's just stupid and fascist. What would you do? Remove all the instances of the word "nigger" in Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird? Completely sterilize it and it's message about race?

Not to mention, as far as I'm concerned, a world in which we have increased sensitivity to racial slurs in one in which the racial barriers are broader. We won't be free of racism by banning the word "nigger", we'll be free of racism the day someone can walk down the street and erupt into a slew of racial slurs without anyone even noticing, because that will be a world free of racial tensions and insecurities. In a world in which all are truly equal, no slur could possibly offend anyone.
_________________
A dick that's bigger than the sun.

Music sucks. Check out my favourite movies, fam:
http://letterboxd.com/jackiegigantic/

Kiki

Racism will not exist when there are no people like you left to be racist.

And why ban books like that? It is best to remember what happened in the past to make sure the same things never happen again. Equality wouldn't exist if people were punished in a world where racial slurs I still used. The world will be full of people who know of them and CHOOSE not to use them.

Bork
Executive Hillbilly

Location: Vinson Mountain, GA

an_outlaw wrote:

Racism will not exist when there are no people like you left to be racist.

Don't start getting personal.

Moving on...

So, what you are saying is:

-If a white man says "Black people are animals, they should all be shot", he is racist.
-If a black man says "White people are animals, they should all be shot", he is not racist.

That makes little sense to me.