Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded? - Music

benpaco
Who's gonna watch you die?

Age: 27
Location: California

swedenman wrote:

Dude, you can't just make up the fact that there are only certain songs eligible for consideration for the best song ever and then just say that "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is one of them as though that were acceptable behavior.

lethalnezzle wrote:

Every song's allowed to be considered, just as every album's allowed to be considered for title of the greatest album ever. And any list without 'International Player's Anthem' is no sort of list at all.

I'd like to apologize about my comment last night. That was awash statement made largely out of anger at my Excel program. When this poll had started, I started doing math based on plays in spotify, sales as a single, and rankings on best of lists. Somehow, this file was totally deleted, right after I'd finished setting up the algorithm to use to calculate it. After 5 to 6 hours of work on the math and collection of the data, I became frustrated and posted that basically as an "awww, screw it". It is not fair to make a statement as definitive as that one. Those were the songs I remember being higher in all of the stats I looked at, but even then, I was being much too selective. I do apologize and hope you don't judge me based on that comment.

Although those are some of the "greatest" songs of all time, they are certainly not the only great songs. Part of my point there was that this was about the "greatest", not the "best" or your favorite. Again, due to my frustration, this message was not clear in or of the least. Again, I'm sorry.
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benpaco wrote:

Although those are some of the "greatest" songs of all time, they are certainly not the only great songs. Part of my point there was that this was about the "greatest", not the "best" or your favorite.

Not this again.

OK, for my own sanity I'm only going to say this once. There is no difference between "greatest", "best" and "favourite". My favourite song of all-time is 'International Player's Anthem' by UGK & Outkast. It is subsequently also the "greatest" and the "best" song of all-time. Album sales, popular opinion, radio play, etc., have no bearing whatsover on its quality or "greatness".

But yeah, no worries. I didn't see anything wrong with the wording of what you were saying, I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that "greatness" can be calculated by anything other than an individual's perception of what is "great". If I perceive a song to be the greatest ever, then it is, if only to me, because the idea of greatness, within popular music at any rate, is entirely subjective. It is in the eye (or ear, as it is in this case) of the beholder. No objective measurement can determine greatness, because if I don't like a song then, to me at least, it's not great. Like 'Stairway To Heaven'. It doesn't matter how many people love it, or how many professional critics sing its praises, or how often it gets listened to on Spotify, because I don't enjoy it. I don't think it's a great song, therefore it isn't. You may think it's a great song, therefore it is. That's all there is to it.

Johnnyo

Gender: Male
Age: 65
Location: London Town

No. Next question?

sp4cetiger

benpaco wrote:

Although those are some of the "greatest" songs of all time, they are certainly not the only great songs. Part of my point there was that this was about the "greatest", not the "best" or your favorite.

I suppose your wording could have been gentler, but I don't think you should have to apologize for posting your opinion. We can quibble all we want about what songs deserve to be on that list, but if you think those are the only songs that qualify, that's fine. Others are just as free to disagree.

Of course, the word "greatest" is ambiguous. A person can choose to define it purely in terms of their own opinion, but then I have to wonder what there really is to talk about. A favorite song is a very personal thing, cloaked in our memories, our needs, our desires... you can't really expect some anonymous person on the internet to understand any of that when you post it on a message board.

That's why I distinguish between "greatest" and "favorite." The greatest song ever is great not just because it provides a profound personal experience for many people, but also because it represents a meaningful collective experience. When Bob Dylan sang that a hard rain was gonna fall, or when John Lennon imagined a world free of hunger and greed, the words resonated with a society of people, not just a majority of individuals. By understanding those words, we understood each other.

By searching for a "greatest" song, I think we are really searching for something that all (or most) of us can relate to, a message that connects us. That's why it's worth talking about. Maybe no such song exists, but we won't know unless we have the conversation.

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sp4cetiger wrote:

Of course, the word "greatest" is ambiguous. A person can choose to define it purely in terms of their own opinion, but then I have to wonder what there really is to talk about. A favorite song is a very personal thing, cloaked in our memories, our needs, our desires... you can't really expect some anonymous person on the internet to understand any of that when you post it on a message board.

That's why I distinguish between "greatest" and "favorite." The greatest song ever is great not just because it provides a profound personal experience for many people, but also because it represents a meaningful collective experience.

But what is a meaningful collective experience? I wasn't around when Sam Cooke sang 'A Change Is Gonna Come' or Bob Dylan sang 'Blowin' in the Wind', but I was at a packed club one time when everyone went mental to Girl Unit's 'Wut' and it felt like everybody knew each other and that nothing in the world was necessary outside of the music and the company. I know that song did the same at tons of club nights across the UK around the same time, and I imagine many tens of thousands of people probably felt something similar, soundtracked by that one song. So is that then a "great" song, as opposed to just a "favourite"? At what point do we say one person's experiences within a culture a less important than another's? This is why I struggle to understand the idea of factoring in perceived cultural or historical importance into a song's "greatness", because what is important historically or culturally is different to every single person. I can recognise that 'Blowin' in the Wind' was probably of great importance to a great many people at an extremely important time, but it wasn't an important song to me culturally. More Fire Crew's 'Pow' holds far more importance to me culturally, because it's a song I identify with a time when an inherently working-class, aggressive, black music was making inroads into popular music in Britain, and it confused and scared a lot of white, middle-class people who didn't know how to deal with it. It is of greater importance to most people of my age that I know than any of the songs on Ben Paco's list, and yet I have friends who hate the song, the musical style, and would never call it "great". I just think it's dangerous to try and assume which songs are more "important" than others when we all have totally unique experiences, and therefore the easiest way (and, to my mind, the correct way) to define a song's "greatness" is simply how much an individual enjoys the song and whether or not they think it's "great". Nothing else should come into it.

sp4cetiger

Well, to start, I want to say that I'm not automatically excluding any particular type of song, whether it be "Wut" or "International Player's Anthem" or whatever. I suspect, however, that those songs aren't very familiar to the majority of people. Maybe they would qualify as among the greatest songs of a particular subculture, but the question I'm asking is whether there are songs that all or most of us can relate to, songs that cross subcultural boundaries and which stand the test of time. If a song has no effect on people simply because they weren't around when it was written, then it probably shouldn't qualify. I wasn't born yet when John Lennon wrote "Imagine," but I can certainly relate to it Same with "Stairway."

Maybe you don't feel much of a connection to people outside of the culture you live in and that's fine too. Maybe most people don't -- if so, you're probably right that the discussion is pointless. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.

meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

gonna go out on a limb and call Happy Birthday the greatest song of all time. Everyone knows it. It's very popular. And it makes people feel good. Otherwise the greatest piece of music ever recorded is the theme song from Fat Albert
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meccalecca wrote:

gonna go out on a limb and call Happy Birthday the greatest song of all time. Everyone knows it. It's very popular. And it makes people feel good. Otherwise the greatest piece of music ever recorded is the theme song from Fat Albert

What about You Are My Sunshine? Very Happy

meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

BrandonMeow wrote:

What about You Are My Sunshine? Very Happy

maybe top 100.
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sp4cetiger wrote:

Well, to start, I want to say that I'm not automatically excluding any particular type of song, whether it be "Wut" or "International Player's Anthem" or whatever. I suspect, however, that those songs aren't very familiar to the majority of people. Maybe they would qualify as among the greatest songs of a particular subculture, but the question I'm asking is whether there are songs that all or most of us can relate to, songs that cross subcultural boundaries and which stand the test of time. If a song has no effect on people simply because they weren't around when it was written, then it probably shouldn't qualify. I wasn't born yet when John Lennon wrote "Imagine," but I can certainly relate to it Same with "Stairway."

Yes, but the 'Macarena' is familiar with a whole lot of people, and I don't see people mentioning it among the greatest songs of all-time. Also, there are no songs that all of us can relate to. None. I doubt there are even songs that most of us can relate to, given that we all speak different languages and all have different tastes. 'Stairway To Heaven' hasn't crossed a huge amount of subcultural boundaries, as far as I know. There aren't loads of (primarily) electronic music fans or (primarily) hip-hop fans or punks who hate the idea of long-winded songs or people, like your friend you mentioned in another thread, who disregard popular music altogether that can relate to it. My point is that there are no songs with a truly universal appeal, no songs which are important to everybody, no songs which some subculture doesn't largely dislike, no songs that aren't of absolutely no consequence to the majority of people. Measuring a song's historical or cultural importance is impossible and thus totally arbitrary, and measuring a song's greatness by how many people bought it or how often it's played on radio is clearly ridiculous, given my previous example of the 'Macarena' and the fact that any amount of sales numbers simply cannot guarantee quality. The only way to truly measure a song's greatness is how much a person enjoys said song.

EDIT:

sp4cetiger wrote:

I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.

Also, I actually find your viewpoint to be quite pessimistic. It implies that we must consult some appointed arbiter of what is actually "great", as opposed to just being able to apply the word to the songs we love. It's quite the opposite of optimistic.