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theblueboy

Applerill wrote:

theblueboy wrote:

EyeKanFly wrote:

bygone BEA forum drama...

This thread's come a long way off books, but I completely support Gowi and Applerill in that lived experience of marginalized people absolutely essentially needs to be listened to and not portrayed as an equal "argument" against people who wish them ostracized or harmed or worse.

I agree that we should listen to the lived experience marginalised groups. That’s the most important point of all. But what do we do if we hear some members of marginalised groups preaching harm and hatred to individuals or other marginalised groups? Should we never stand up to this and ask why?

…What violence am I practicing towards marginalized groups?

Don’t say women, because that in itself is transphobic in its assumption that Gowi and I aren’t women. Don’t say Harry Potter fans either, even if the term sometimes seems like a synonym for “older millennial”.

Well I wasn’t talking about violence to Donkeys.

theblueboy

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I understand tensions are a bit high here right now, but I'd appreciate it if we could reel this in - I don't gather that anyone here is going to be changing their minds anytime soon. Let's try and get back to the topic, I'd really prefer not to have to lock the thread or anything like that.

I appreciate that you are intervening in the interest of cool heads prevailing before someone says something really horrible. But I’m not really prepared to let what has gone on simply get swept under the rug. I don’t like the BEA community turning a blind eye to misogynistic posts, claims that an individual deserves a scarlet letter and other misinformation. Same goes for that interloper’s attempt to throw in some horrible transphobic language. You are right, this is probably beyond resolution at this point but people should not be discouraged from speaking out. I was always prepared to die on this hill. Still am.

theblueboy

cestuneblague wrote:

theblueboy wrote:

EyeKanFly wrote:

bygone BEA forum drama...

This thread's come a long way off books, but I completely support Gowi and Applerill in that lived experience of marginalized people absolutely essentially needs to be listened to and not portrayed as an equal "argument" against people who wish them ostracized or harmed or worse.

I agree that we should listen to the lived experience marginalised groups. That’s the most important point of all. But what do we do if we hear some members of marginalised groups preaching harm and hatred to individuals or other marginalised groups? Should we never stand up to this and ask why?

I would need to go through this thread again but I don't remember when they were doing that? Again I did have issue with the social media reaction to Hogwarts: Legacy, but even in retrospect that was just the usual Twitter drama of calling anybody you have a problem with a bigot and at least attempting to do a public shaming list of users who played the game, (which admittedly is a really shady way of making people vulnerable to harrassment and possibly doxxing), but not really outward bigotry, especially based on personal identity. Even here at worse was just a case of some aggressive false-equivilancy politics and Applerill doing the usual neversurewhenserious Trolling.

There has been some unequivocal misogyny with that book reference from Applerill. Not saying I was properly offended because it was more bizarre than anything. Gowi talking about scarlet letters is not exactly great though either. I know it’s not the worst or even close, but still.

The case that hate has been advocated towards Rowling is pretty clear though.

Also, thanks for your posts. Very helpful indeed to have had these perspectives.

theblueboy

cestuneblague wrote:

EyeKanFly wrote:

bygone BEA forum drama...

This thread's come a long way off books, but I completely support Gowi and Applerill in that lived experience of marginalized people absolutely essentially needs to be listened to and not portrayed as an equal "argument" against people who wish them ostracized or harmed or worse.

I don't remember anytime when users here were saying we need to give Rowling equal voice or respect for her bigotry in contrast to the voices of the Trans community. I guess Blueboy not being full convinced of her transphobia came across as defending her in some sort even if he was genuinely unaware of the depths of a lot of her not-so-cryptic takes on gender, and I certainly have little doubt of her views on the subject as it fits very much into the dog-whistle-through-a-bellhorn TERF exclusionary rhetoric, but again I think there were some better ways to handle that. Again my problem has been moreso the small vocal minority online have shown their opposition to Rowling have handled the release of Harry Potter IP by taking it out on the consumer strawman, regardless of whatever views they've actually shown, and no Marginalized Status does not make it okay for personal attacks or borderline sketchy harrasment campaigns. And (hold the fuck on) I did not say that put them anywhere near the level of Rowling & those she now pals around with. Now Gowi and Applerill weren't doing that here (well I mean Applerill was just being Applerill, it's kind of live and let live at this point) and clearly much of it is born about the entirely understandable issue that letting Rowling in some shape or form back into a visibile, mainstream space can cause problems even if she's just "there in spirit", but I can still see how it also negatively came across as if there were declerations that Blueboy was either supporting Rowling's politics automatically by his consumption of Harry Potter or that he was feigning ignorance to knowledge about her transphobic views- which my time around his forums he has always come across as a very sincere person. Again, there are always better ways of communication if you want to try and get people who aren't in your lived experience to fully see your side of things.

Yeah thanks, I wasn’t feigning ignorance at any point (except when I pretended to have not heard of Jman Laughing

)

Nobody actually asked me for my political views and I never gave them. In fact, there has been a good many manoeuvres to discourage me from speaking and discredit my views.

Well here goes, the main differences between Rowling and myself I want to stress is for one that I’m not polemical. I have no idea on the bloody answers as I see both sides of the debate. The second difference is that Rowling obviously does not care about offending transgender people. I do. Also, I’m not transphobic, but Rowling claims this as well.

Was I naive about the controversies? In hindsight, not all that much. I didn’t know anything really about all Rowling’s associations because these are not really covered in the mainstream media I have consumed. I said that I don’t see the evidence that she is transphobic (or perhaps better to say has expressed transphobic views) and ultimately that still stands. Nobody has presented any credible evidence that she is being transphobic. Of course there are all these these transphobic associations. I don’t like them at all but I don’t like the crap thrown at Rowling either.

What case could you make against JK in a court of law? I’m not going to say that someone is transphobic because they are holding hands with a transphobic person. Her behaviour is wrong and it’s offensive behaviour, it has damaged her credibility massively. But as far as I am concerned, someone is transphobic when they utter a transphobic statement. In which case, hold them to account and take them to court.

Like I said though before ad nauseam. I am prepared to learn more.

Applerill
Autistic Princess <3

Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago

theblueboy wrote:

cestuneblague wrote:

theblueboy wrote:

EyeKanFly wrote:

bygone BEA forum drama...

This thread's come a long way off books, but I completely support Gowi and Applerill in that lived experience of marginalized people absolutely essentially needs to be listened to and not portrayed as an equal "argument" against people who wish them ostracized or harmed or worse.

I agree that we should listen to the lived experience marginalised groups. That’s the most important point of all. But what do we do if we hear some members of marginalised groups preaching harm and hatred to individuals or other marginalised groups? Should we never stand up to this and ask why?

I would need to go through this thread again but I don't remember when they were doing that? Again I did have issue with the social media reaction to Hogwarts: Legacy, but even in retrospect that was just the usual Twitter drama of calling anybody you have a problem with a bigot and at least attempting to do a public shaming list of users who played the game, (which admittedly is a really shady way of making people vulnerable to harrassment and possibly doxxing), but not really outward bigotry, especially based on personal identity. Even here at worse was just a case of some aggressive false-equivilancy politics and Applerill doing the usual neversurewhenserious Trolling.

There has been some unequivocal misogyny with that book reference from Applerill. Not saying I was properly offended because it was more bizarre than anything. Gowi talking about scarlet letters is not exactly great though either. I know it’s not the worst or even close, but still.

The case that hate has been advocated towards Rowling is pretty clear though.

Also, thanks for your posts. Very helpful indeed to have had these perspectives.

Once again, your accusation is horribly puritanical at best and downright transphobic at worse, as it implies that I’m not a woman myself, AND that lots of women (and people of all genders) don’t have sexual fantasies of being raped in their personal lives* that don’t harm anyone else. I personally find the Crane book to be mostly cartoonish and funny more than actually erotic (though I often DO fantasize about humans doing those things to me), but a cishet man called a trans woman misogynist for joking about it is… not a good look…

*I hope I don’t have to explain how this is vastly different than “asking for it” rhetoric, since this is personally based on my consensual desires towards my own body at VERY specific times.

theblueboy

Quote:

Once again, your accusation is horribly puritanical at best and downright transphobic at worse, as it implies that I’m not a woman myself, AND that lots of women (and people of all genders) don’t have sexual fantasies of being raped in their personal lives*
.

*by donkeys

cestuneblague
Edgy to the Choir

Location: MA/FL

It's time to fucking stop, nothing new is being said by anybody and all this has become the usual internet game of just smugly deciding who's the bigger asshole or bigot. If this needs to be closed and someone wants to open up a new reading thread where "discussions" of anything related to Rowling or Harry Potter are banned, I'm all for it, free speech be damned.

Romanelli
Bone Swah

Gender: Male
Location: Broomfield, Colorado

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