Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music - Music

meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Norman Bates wrote:

I am no historian. I would perhaps venture that the fault lies within the patriarchal system we've been living in for centuries?

Yup. Don't need to be a historian to see that this is the problem.

And you're right. The problem isn't simply one within music, but one within society. Of course pop culture has a massive influence over society, so if we were to see a huge change in regards to the misogyny in music and other forms of entertainment, it would likely have a profound effect on society as a whole. I believe we've already seen that with the growing acceptance of homosexuality.

The first thing the came to mind when I saw this thread was the scene in This is Spinal Tap when they're discussing the artwork for their album Smell the Glove. It's a perfect mockery of the metal bands of that time, and how oblivious they were in regards to the blatant misogyny projected.
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Graeme2

Gender: Male
Location: The Upside Down

Norman Bates wrote:

I am no historian. I would perhaps venture that the fault lies within the patriarchal system we've been living in for centuries?

Ok good point. But really you got to be kidding if you think it's not prevalent in hip hop? You serious? Just type "mysogyny in" into google and hip hop is the third hit after the bible and hamlet. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny...op_culture

Puncture Repair

Honestly I'm not sure the argument that misogyny lies in society as a whole (which is true) excuses music for having sexist lyrics, and I don't think that should be the end of the discussion. I accept that the same argument can be taken to movies, videos games, and so on, but we can't help move towards gender equality until every sphere of culture is willing to change, and musicians have just as much responsibility as writers or artists of other mediums.

Saying a certain Hip Hop or Rock artist is sexist because society is sexist is beside the point and (I feel) a sorry excuse. Everyone in modern society has the responsibility and resources to educate themselves, whether they're celebrities or not.

I think the real problem is musicians that are sexist know they're sexist, and they either just don't care, or are marketing themselves on the 'cool' factor that sells. That's the sad thing: sexism sells.

Either consumers need to be more mindful as to where their ideals and money lie (which realistically isn't going to happen entirely for another hundred or so years) or artists need to actually reflect on their own words some.

Skinny
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Graeme2 wrote:

Ok good point. But really you got to be kidding if you think it's not prevalent in hip hop? You serious? Just type "mysogyny in" into google and hip hop is the third hit after the bible and hamlet. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny...op_culture

But perhaps the reason it appears to be so prevalent in hip-hop has more to with hip-hop's fascination with "keeping it real", and thus acting as a mirror to society (or parts of society, anyway) through lyrics that are, more often than not, more concerned with the literal and less with the symbolic (when compared to the often cryptic or metaphorical lyrics of vast swathes of rock songwriters). Since hip-hop is arguably the genre which offers the most straightforward, literal worldview in its lyrics, shouldn't it stand to reason that it's inevitably bound to be the genre in which the world's own highly misogynistic tendencies are most clearly represented? Is berating hip-hop for being misogynistic not akin to berating the news media for creating a paranoid society through its constant depictions of war and terrorism?

And, y'know, I don't think Google's autocomplete system is really the most scientific way of gauging these things.
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meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Yeah. Let's not single out hip hop here. This goes across the board. No one can tell me that misogyny isn't also just as prevalent in pop music and rock.

What's more symptomatic of society's misogyny problem:
Miley Cyrus' "Wrecking Ball" video or Doggystyle?

And then there's the Stones, Zeppelin, 80s hair metal. All of that shit wreaks of misogyny.
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Graeme2

Gender: Male
Location: The Upside Down

Skinny wrote:

But perhaps the reason it appears to be so prevalent in hip-hop has more to with hip-hop's fascination with "keeping it real", and thus acting as a mirror to society (or parts of society, anyway) through lyrics that are, more often than not, more concerned with the literal and less with the symbolic (when compared to the often cryptic or metaphorical lyrics of vast swathes of rock songwriters). Since hip-hop is arguably the genre which offers the most straightforward, literal worldview in its lyrics, shouldn't it stand to reason that it's inevitably bound to be the genre in which the world's own highly misogynistic tendencies are most clearly represented? Is berating hip-hop for being misogynistic not akin to berating the news media for creating a paranoid society through its constant depictions of war and terrorism?

And, y'know, I don't think Google's autocomplete system is really the most scientific way of gauging these things.

I think that the google autocomplete just shows its a topic well searched for that's all. It's a shame that " hip hop" is getting tagged with it to be honest. Hip hop isn't misogynistic. Some of its artists are though. For whatever reason. Misogyny exists in all life and music but it is very prominent in hip hop and for me it is a problem. Not sure about the news media analogy.

Skinny
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Puncture Repair wrote:

Honestly I'm not sure the argument that misogyny lies in society as a whole (which is true) excuses music for having sexist lyrics, and I don't think that should be the end of the discussion. I accept that the same argument can be taken to movies, videos games, and so on, but we can't help move towards gender equality until every sphere of culture is willing to change, and musicians have just as much responsibility as writers or artists of other mediums.

Saying a certain Hip Hop or Rock artist is sexist because society is sexist is beside the point and (I feel) a sorry excuse. Everyone in modern society has the responsibility and resources to educate themselves, whether they're celebrities or not.

I think the real problem is musicians that are sexist know they're sexist, and they either just don't care, or are marketing themselves on the 'cool' factor that sells. That's the sad thing: sexism sells.

Either consumers need to be more mindful as to where their ideals and money lie (which realistically isn't going to happen entirely for another hundred or so years) or artists need to actually reflect on their own words some.

It's for the purposes of entertainment. Some of it is despicable, but these people aren't (in 99% of cases) attempting to be "role models". If an artist's audience can't distinguish between songs made for the purposes of entertainment and viable life advice, that isn't the artist's fault. Sure, you can argue that young children are easily influenced, and that the music often veers into encouragement of certain behaviours, but at that point it is up to the child's parents to step in and teach the child the difference between entertainment (however trashy) and real life. And, if the parents don't do this or are incapable of doing this, I'm afraid that it's society's fault. And so, actually, the argument does begin and end with society's own misogyny.

This is true for all music, not just hip-hop. The people who wield the most influence when it comes to the running and the shaping of our society (note: not musicians) clearly have very little interest in putting an end to this misogyny, and I think the idea that it is up to the artists - or even to the consumer - to do something about this is a harmful one that conveniently absolves some very shady people with some very shady motives of the blame that they deserve. The music we listen to is music that is representative of the society we live in, and the vast majority of people have virtually no influence whatsoever on the direction that society takes. We are taught from a young age that women are lesser beings than men (not directly, but constantly and via a huge variety of sources), and musicians taking a stand, en masse, against this particular hegemony is not only an unfair and unrealistic thing to ask for, but would arguably make very little difference. Change the society, and the music will change with it.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

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Moderator

I think we can establish the premise that, while hip-hop is often the most talked about genre of music when it comes to misogyny in lyrics (whether that's right or wrong), misogyny is prevalent in many different genres. I immediately thought of 80s hair metal as well, and other rock songs, like I mentioned in the OP, Faces' "Stay With Me" is a good example.
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Graeme2

Gender: Male
Location: The Upside Down

meccalecca wrote:

Yeah. Let's not single out hip hop here. This goes across the board. No one can tell me that misogyny isn't also just as prevalent in pop music and rock.

What's more symptomatic of society's misogyny problem:
Miley Cyrus' "Wrecking Ball" video or Doggystyle?

And then there's the Stones, Zeppelin, 80s hair metal. All of that shit wreaks of misogyny.

Hair metal was very misogynist. Motley Crüe etc

RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: Maryland

Moderator

I'd also like to re-emphasize the portion of the study I quoted that deals with this:

Quote:

It is important to emphasize that, like other music genres, rap is more varied in its content than is often recognized. For instance, this music has served as a consciousness-raising, politically progressive, liberating form of popular culture. Therefore, we want to emphasize that misogyny does not characterize rap music as a whole. This is an important finding in itself. A majority of songs in our sample do not degrade women, and there are rappers who actively challenge rap’s misogynistic messages and endorse a more egalitarian form of masculinity. At the same time, a sizeable segment (more than one-fifth) of this genre does contain such messages, and our analysis indicates that these messages are rather extreme. Although women are presented as subordinate to men in a majority of rock and country songs as noted earlier, rap stands out for the intensity and graphic nature of its lyrical objectification, exploitation, and victimization of women. Other genres, in the aggregate, make more subtle allusions to gender inequality or present more muted criticisms of women. Furthermore, it is important to consider what themes are largely absent in rap lyrics. Rare are lyrics that describe women as independent, educated, professional, caring, and trustworthy. Although the majority of songs in the original sample did not contain misogynistic lyrics, even these songs failed to present women in a favorable light. In other words, absence of misogyny does not equate with a positive representation of women.

'

edit: for reference, the sample the used was every every rap album that had achieved platinum status between 1992 and 2000.

Link to the study
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Last edited by RockyRaccoon on 03/02/2015 21:33; edited 1 time in total