Refugee Crisis

[19loveless91]

Okay, so this is the biggest topic of conversation in Europe right now, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Basically to summarize - in the past few years, most of refugees/immigrants that wanted to come to EU countries, came from Africa (esp. Libya) via Mediterranean sea and into Italy. Now, with Syrian civil war still going on after many years, more and more people are coming through a different path - via Turkey to Greece islands (or mainland), then smuggled or walking through Balkans from Macedonia to Serbia to Hungary to Austria and to their desired destination (in most cases anyway) - Germany. Most likely because the refugee camps in countries surrounding Syria (Lebanon and Turkey especially) are overcrowded and don't offer good living conditions.
Throughout the last 1-2 months, we have seen:

-Tensions on Greek/Macedonian border, with Macedonian army wanting to stop the progress of refugees through their country (although they left them in eventually)
-Chaos on some of the Greek islands these people have come to on their way towards the north.
-Hungary, which is building a wall on their border to limit the number of refugees reaching their country, is being accused by all the mainstream media of cruelty against refugees. After the first large group entered Budapest with train tickets for Vienna, they were not allowed on the trains and were stranded there for a couple of days before eventually taken to refugee camps in the country, however many (or most?) do not wish to be registered due to fear they will have to eventually return to Hungary if they will be refused permit in their desired countries.
-Germany appeared welcoming to refugees, with some of the politicians claiming they can take up to 500k /year to 800k just this year. They are also demanding that all the EU countries split refugees among themselves according to quotas (both those coming through Greece and the previous ones coming through Italy), however not all countries are thrilled with this idea (Czech, Slovaks, Poland, Hungary)
However, in these days, the increasing amount of refugees proved too much even for the Germans and they decided to start controlling the border with Austria and even (somewhat hypocritically, might I add..) want countries where refugees enter the EU zone to protect their borders more.

From what I can tell, the people are split into several sides in the debate regarding how Europe should deal with this crisis:
-One extreme position is the borderline nazi sentiment - our cultures are not compatible, they will ruin our way of life, bring crime, islamization of Europe, white genocide, it's a grand Saudi/Arab plan, send them back, etc.
-Even some of the less radical people are quick to point out the demographics of the people coming this way (mostly male (70-75%, depending on the source), fairly young, including a large number of non-Syrians and people from countries that are not necessarily in a war right now) that indicate they are coming to Europe not just to flee war, but to get social benefits or try to find work, and that this makes them "economic migrants", not war refugees. They follow that up, by saying that Europe should work hard to only accept those people that need help the most, while those others, which want to leech of the EU welfare should go back to where they came from or the first safe (not-in-war) country.

-On a completely different side are the somewhat idealistic "think of the children" folks, that want to help everyone by opening the borders. Most of them make sure to mention that Europe, along with USA, is in large part responsible for the destabilization of those countries (Libya, Syria, Iraq), so it's our duty to do everything to help, accept them in - they only want to work and will not cause trouble. Claims of "incompatible cultures" are racism, Dublin regulation should be suspended, etc.

I'm stuck somewhere in between. I don't think these people would actually go on such a risky path to Europe if they didn't feel it was absolutely necessary (you probably know how many people died on this path, esp. on Mediterranean sea), so it is necessary to give help. On the other hand, if you want order in a country (and if you want to help these people properly, you need to have order), opening the borders and openly inviting the refugees to come here, will just create more chaos than it already is, and have far more people trying to come into country than they are possible to deal with (at once) - and when that is the case, the safety is compromised, and you can't really help these people coming here either! They will go from being stuck in refugee camps in Turkey/Lebanon to being stuck in refugee camps in Europe. I mean, if you want them to integrate normally in this society, is this really the way to do it?

The argument of "Europe did this so we deserve this" is also flawed - sure, the politics from our countries made us benefit more from them compared to the people in Libya, Syria, or Iraq, or Eritrea for that matter, but the general public here doesn't really want or vote for those wars, and people who will get the short end of the stick are those people that are already marginalized and/or in bad economic situation themselves. Let's also not make illusions that Europe is the only one to blame, and that Arab leaders (or African dictators in the case of their countries) couldn't do more to help what's happening down there - and if you are looking for countries that should be doing more to aid the refugees, you don't need to leave middle East to do so - I've read reports of Saudi Arabia willing to donate money to build more mosques in Germany, but I don't remember reading anything about them accepting refugees from those countries (along with Kuwait, Qatar...)

I do think that EU has a moral obligation to help restore order in the countries they helped destabilize, but do that without destabilizing European countries themselves, because it would just make the problems they already have worse (it's funny how easy it is to forget the Greek crisis in the light of these events - but really, how are Greek in their current economic situation to cope with thousands of refugees arriving and travelling through their countries?) You don't want an uncontrolled mass of people reaching your borders - if nothing else for safety reasons! Plus it only benefits the smugglers, while EU money that could be used to help the war zones AND overcrowded refugee camps in the Middle East will be going towards newly created crisis areas.

So, your thoughts?

How to help these people?
How to prevent those that are making major money with them (smugglers) and should EU countries organize this "travel" themselves - this could limit the number of refugees, and potentially help those that need it most (and prevent potential frauds)?
How to help the situation in their respective countries?
Should Europe be worried about islamization, or the possibility of a culture clash?
Will the refugees be able to integrate in the European society, in the long term?
Should we divide those that are fleeing war and those that don't come from politically unstable countries ("economic migrants")?
Is the "quotas" solution realistic?
Should EU do more to pressure the neighbouring Arab countries into helping more?
What do you think the development of this crisis will be? Will Slovenia get fucked after Hungary, Germany and Austria start controlling their borders more?
Is Europe racist?
When will you accept a Syrian refugee in your home?

Sorry for not providing any links, most of the stuff I've been reading is in Slovenian anyway.. But if you're curious I can find you some interesting stuff.

[Satie]

i thought these people were freedom fighters backed by the west? i guess the only handouts we allow Syrians are guns to overthrow people we dislike instead of subsistence for families displaced by our wars.

[Muslim-Bigfoot]

The big problem is with Oil-rich Arab countries. They should be able to host most of population of Syria easily. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Jordan and also Shia Iran. But the reality is the exact opposite. People in those areas know of the fate of those who take refuge in these countries so they're not willing to go that way even if there was any enthusiasm from the countries themselves (which doesn't seem to exist). There are third generation Palestinian refugees, third generation, in Jordan and Lebanon that have no citizenship rights and are still living in camps. About "economic immigrant" thing; that's nonsense more than likely. Where were these economic immigrants before Syrian civil war? The late influx is probably more than 90% from Syria. But there are about 6 million displaced still inside Syria so I don't think those who take the risk of "decision" are doing it out of leisure.
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"I feel like for the last two years there’s been sort of a sonic evolution happening and I’ve been experimenting more and more."

[19loveless91]

[Satie]

[Norman Bates]

Nobody has chosen where he was born. Everybody should be allowed to live wherever they please. I would also like to point out that this - which is my opinion - has nothing to do with the "we did this, we must do something" argument that is totally pitiful. We should welcome oppressed/starving/endangered people from everywhere.

[Satie]

[meccalecca]

[Satie]

[meccalecca]