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Kiki

19loveless91 wrote:

It's not going downhill as much I just don't think you're getting exactly what people (esp Jack) are trying to write to you. Right now I'm writing a long ass post so please don't lock the thread or anything. I'll post my opinion here cause I'm replying to others too

Well I should apologize to you as well regardless. I messed up this thread and might not have fully understood what you had said.

I can sympathize with Jackwc as I interpreted his own posts as racist and he was extremely angerred to read it. To have such abuse from him... I'm sure he must have felt the same way I did.

I don't dare read what he has put now. I'll probably have to leave him for a long time.

Jackwc
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an_outlaw wrote:

19loveless91 wrote:

It's not going downhill as much I just don't think you're getting exactly what people (esp Jack) are trying to write to you. Right now I'm writing a long ass post so please don't lock the thread or anything. I'll post my opinion here cause I'm replying to others too

Well I should apologize to you as well regardless. I messed up this thread and might not have fully understood what you had said.

I can sympathize with Jackwc as I interpreted his own posts as racist and he was extremely angerred to read it. To have such abuse from him... I'm sure he must have felt the same way I did.

I don't dare read what he has put now. I'll probably have to leave him for a long time.

Excuse me, but what abuse? I wasn't very angered at all when I'd written that post, in fact I was in quite a good temperament - it's only now that I'm becoming frustrated, and that mostly has to do with the post you deleted.

In what way was it abusive? If you still have it's content, then I big you to read it again, in full, and spend at LEAST a little time thinking about what the words mean or in what tone they might be written before you dismiss it as "abuse".
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Guest

I think this is actually a misunderstanding and I think offense was taken where none was meant.

I actually think that certain comments may have been misunderstood or misconstrued. I didn't see the original post so I don't know what you said.

Jack, the content goes when you delete a post so I can't see what you wrote in your original post - but if you can remember PM me.

But I do sincerely think this is a misunderstanding that you guys should move on from.

Last edited by Guest on 02/14/2012 22:02; edited 2 times in total

19loveless91
mag. druž. inf

I think we all have a slightly different definition of what racism is.

Norman Bates wrote:

No. Racism is believing in the existence of several human races. From what I know (very little I admit), this has never been proved and is still subject of debate.

To start here... I don't think that's true. You can't deny the visual differences that are between certain groups of people, and these are what we "interpret" as races (three "main" ones + others). The problem here, and with racism is, that these "natural" or "visible" differences become the basis on which people start attributing characteristics to people of all races, usually based on what a small group of people of this »race« are doing - which is called generalization, or stereotyping.
Of course this is highly flawed, but that doesn't mean there aren't differences between races as groups. But I would argue that most if not all of them are a product of societies and their cultures throughout history - which in essence make the race a social or cultural construct, and not a thing of biology or nature. In this vain, I can understand what an_outlaw is saying, as it is because of this "construct" (a product of our society) that people start seeing people of different race as "such and such",via stereotypes and generalization. In effect this means that the way one racial group is being stereotyped can become the way society (all of it, not just the racists) generally sees people that belong to this group in one society, which can lead to prejudices and injustices even in today's world, when in theory we have moved away from racial differentiation.

What I don't agree with is that this "system" is something that doesn't change and determines the way we think and live, which makes all of the people that belong to non-white races oppressed by default.
For example - "The system" might be made up of straight white men, which I am too, but that does not mean that I belong into that group. One person or a group of people cannot represent the entire race. I don't have the economic or political power, I'm not reproducing racist beliefs, so why should it matter that I'm white. So I don't know how is it "ok" for somebody from a "non-white" group to go racist, describing the whites as somehow "less worthy", whatever his justification might be.

Even if it's the logic that the "white system" is at fault. This is the same logic that racists use. It's called generalization, and it can be dangerous either way. As I said before, injustices still exist, I'm not denying that, but the position of black people is significantly better than it used to be (in a western society), and is slowly approaching to what we could call equality (and as I said in theory it should already be this way). But the only way this can be achieved is when we will stop putting people into groups based on their race, attributing them with characteristics with generalizing based on small groups. It goes BOTH ways, and in a long run it can be dangerous, even if the "oppressed" are the one being racists. And that's all I'm saying.

So anyway in short: One way we can stop the »racism« from happening is to try and shape the society and our culture (ie the "system") in a way, where individuals won't be seen as part of the larger group – race but as a stand alone people.
Another way is that you can try to recognize that there are indeed differences between the races, but that mere existence of differences doesn't mean anything, and that they are equal.
Either way is hard and flawed. The first way you run the chance of erasing the history or a culture of a group (or maybe that's the only way to do it?), in the second way you're doing injustice to individuals – which is generally the situation nowadays, isn't it?

an_outlaw wrote:

No, you can't use leaders in countries such as Africa or the Middle East to justify Racism against people in places such as North America and Europe

One more thing to clarify here. I never tried to justify any kind of racism. I was talking about people who are holding power in today's world . And yes, even those leaders have power and as such a big impact even on us in a "western" society. To give you a completely banal example - look at the top of the english Premier League table and think about how they got the players to be able to get there.
But OK let's say that I agree that racism as we're discussing it is predominantly a thing of the western society.

an_outlaw wrote:

And banning the use of words counter-productive??? Shocked

Don't go there.

And one more thing to say here, as it seems to be the root of your problem with Jack and I don't think you completely understand what he's trying to say.

You see I actually sorta agree with him here. When you start banning words or users that use such words, you're not making racism disappear, you're just moving it away to a place where you can't see it and it doesn't bother you. Words only gain meaning in a certain context which people produce. If you ban them, you can distort the meaning (as you did by removing Jack's post, as he meant nothing offensive, but used those words to prove his point), or you give them even more power. I think one of the most absurd things I've seen in my life is the removing of the word "nigger" from the rap songs (by black artists), played on the radio or TV.
In my view of a perfect society, people would use insults all they want, because in such (perfect) society, people would know better than to use them with the purpose of insulting the whole group of people, based on what they look like (ie their race). It would be kind of like when you're insulting your friends. It doesn't mean you actually mean that about them, but both you and them know better so they don't get offended.

I'm spending a bit more time lately on 4chan, which is a horribly racist, sexist and just generally very offensive message board. However, I still like the idea of such a board, and if things would actually according to this idea, then I would sure like it to apply it to the whole world.
Why? Well exactly because of what I was describing. Because everyone would be equal in a way that everybody would be offended in the same way (basically no one can escape it; it's a similar thing to what South Park advocates).

Problem here, or why is it hard to implement this in the future? You can't erase history, and what happened before will always influence the present and the future (and as such actions of all races and genders and whateva). You could see blacks offending whites and vice versa, but there will be a problem, because of the history of blacks being oppressed by whites, so it's hard to imagine a world where the black people would just forget what happened to their ancestors or at least see this kind of "two-way offending" as truly equal.

And there's of course the problem that there will always be a minority in a society which will thus be worse off. So it is really only an utopian society TBH. Which is also the reason 4chan (well, /b/) doesn't work the way I would like.

P. S.
sorry this is so long. I don't really want to read this again myself, so it likely repeats itself and is probably a bit confusing at times. If it is, please ask me and I'll clarify

gussteivi

mancsoulsister wrote:

I think this is actually a misunderstanding and I think offense was taken where none was meant.

I actually think that certain comments may have been misunderstood or misconstrued. I didn't see the original post so I don't know what you said.

Jack, the content goes when you delete a post so I can't see what you wrote in your original post - but if you can remember PM me.

But I do sincerely think this is a misunderstanding that you guys should move on from.

I read the post. I don't remember it word by word, but I can assure you Jackwc wasn't abusing an_outlaw at all.

(If you want I'll put my hand on the bible and testify it in a court of law any day of the week. Just say the word and I'll do it.)

EDIT: this is me staying out of this btw...

Guest

Ok...

I think you guys need to move on with the discussion and look at what Loveless posted.. Smile

19loveless91
mag. druž. inf

I think the length might have put some people off. Also, I read through it now, and there's a lot of mistakes, and in some cases I either repeat the words or forgot to write them at all.
For example here:

Quote:

Even if it's the logic that the "white system" is at fault

... I mean "for injustices that happen to them"

Ugh... Anyway if there's anything you don't get, ask me, I'll try to re-write it in a more coherent way

Jackwc
Queen Of The Forums

Location: Aaaanywhere Sex: Incredible

19loveless91 wrote:

an_outlaw wrote:

And banning the use of words counter-productive??? :shock: Don't go there.

And one more thing to say here, as it seems to be the root of your problem with Jack and I don't think you completely understand what he's trying to say.

You see I actually sorta agree with him here. When you start banning words or users that use such words, you're not making racism disappear, you're just moving it away to a place where you can't see it and it doesn't bother you. Words only gain meaning in a certain context which people produce. If you ban them, you can distort the meaning (as you did by removing Jack's post, as he meant nothing offensive, but used those words to prove his point), or you give them even more power. I think one of the most absurd things I've seen in my life is the removing of the word "nigger" from the rap songs (by black artists), played on the radio or TV.
In my view of a perfect society, people would use insults all they want, because in such (perfect) society, people would know better than to use them with the purpose of insulting the whole group of people, based on what they look like (ie their race). It would be kind of like when you're insulting your friends. It doesn't mean you actually mean that about them, but both you and them know better so they don't get offended.

^ this was the jist of what I had said, but I feel you've phrased it better.
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HigherThanTheSun

Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: UK

19loveless91 wrote:

I think we all have a slightly different definition of what racism is.

Norman Bates wrote:

No. Racism is believing in the existence of several human races. From what I know (very little I admit), this has never been proved and is still subject of debate.

To start here... I don't think that's true. You can't deny the visual differences that are between certain groups of people, and these are what we "interpret" as races (three "main" ones + others).

Have to say I disagree again, I'm with Norman.

'Race' as we know it is just a construct to seperate us, it has no basis in biology. I'd like to know what the three types are, I assume you mean black white and asian? Well I'm not really satisfied with that.

Populations in different parts of the world develop different physical traits but it's dumb to pigeonhole everyone into a certain 'race'. For example you can tell from looking between a West African and an East African, A Spaniard from a Norwegian or an Indian from a Korean hence why I can't agree with your 'three races' theory. We're all different and our skin tone is just one physical attribute, albeit the most noticeable.

The fact that we can breed with any other human means we are more breeds than races.

Anyway, to the question I think it's a valid poit about racism in hip hop, fact is there's a lot of it and I'm sorry Outlaw but I just can't buy the argument that it's somehow OK for black people to be racist. Racism breeds racism and if we want to challenge it we have to challenge it whenever we see it. Same for homophobia which you see alot of in hip hop (what do you think of that btw Outlaw? Just curious).

When you hear Public Enemy talking about black nationalism and black superiority you can't help but cringe. When you hear Mos Def's Rock 'n' Roll or Brown Skin Lady or hear him talking about "my people" it's painful because he's doing a complete disservice to the fight against racism. The end to Blackalicious' Cliff hanger is absurd "for black people community is not a question of geography but of colour" and "the first place you go is to your people" and "there's no such thing as black American" etc Kanye West's "and a white man gets paid off of all of that" or "you can be my black Kate Moss tonight"

Frankly the examples are endless and it's depressing because I love hip hop but can't stand the racism and homophobia.

The whole point is to create a cohesive society where the colour of your skin is treated as an irrelevance, as it should be. But a lot of rappers don't seem to have got the message, although we have to see the works of PE for example in a historical (more racist) context that does not make it excusable.

Outlaw I have to politely disagree, like I said they're doing a disservice to the fight against racism and they should think long and hard about exactly what they're saying, especially Mos Def because he's a clever man and should know better. Rock 'n' Roll is one of the most ridiculous and racist songs I've ever heard.
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Jackwc
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HigherThanTheSun wrote:

'Race' as we know it is just a construct to seperate us, it has no basis in biology.

.......what?

Yes it does. Where did you get this? Who told you this? It has a LOT of basis in biology! There are entire fields of study about it! Race is the creation of genetic divergence, much in the same ways there came to be various different breeds of dog. People of different races carry similar genetic traits, because those traits happened to be predominant in the parts of the world those people are from. Certain traits become more dominant in certain areas because they were better suited to those environments. All species are divided into "different races".

I definitely agree about the hip hop points though - there is a sometimes intolerable amount of racism, sexism and homophobia in hip hop music.

EDIT: wait, re-read the comment, my bad, ignore the first paragraph (unless, of course, you're interested in the wonderful world of genetic divergence!).
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Last edited by Jackwc on 02/15/2012 06:58; edited 2 times in total