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meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

sp4cetiger wrote:

Pretty sure this isn't true. Gang violence is generally classified differently from shootings like this and also gets less national press coverage. The profile of mass murderers as white people may actually be due to a form of racism -- when a black or Latino kid shoots up his neighborhood, it's just dismissed as "ordinary" gang violence.

I think it's just a very different type of crime. When gang members shoot each other, many see that as the product of two guilty parties and those deaths aren't mourned the same way. Also, many murders by minorities in the ghetto are seen as survival. That's not to say there are plenty of innocent people killed by gangs, but the mass shootings and serial killers have had a history of being white men. And these men are not the type that grew up in a situation where gangbanging was the natural way of life.

These situations with middle class suburban white kids who pre-meditate mass shootings of innocent civilians are much more complicated. There's no immediate cause to blame. Some blame guns. Some blame movies, tv, music. Some blame our culture in general. But it's a really tough thing to unravel. It seems to be a mix of so many different variables, from glorified gun violence to overmedication to lack of a moral family structure. One thing that always seems to connect them are is that they seem incredibly desensitized towards violence and in need of serious psychological help.

In contemporary 'Merica we look for the simplest solutions. If someone is suffering from manic depression, we just drug them without really trying to work on the actual problem.

I grew up watching a lot of violent movies and didn't turn out to be a violent person, but I've gotten to the point where I also think the constant glorification of gun violence in entertainment and video games has been incredibly damaging to our society, and these artists, filmmakers and musicians need to take more social responsibility.

Just as a culture that tirelessly objectifies women creates rapists, a culture that highlights the power of gun violence creates murderers.
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sp4cetiger

meccalecca wrote:

I think it's just a very different type of crime. When gang members shoot each other, many see that as the product of two guilty parties and those deaths aren't mourned the same way. Also, many murders by minorities in the ghetto are seen as survival. That's not to say there are plenty of innocent people killed by gangs, but the mass shootings and serial killers have had a history of being white men. And these men are not the type that grew up in a situation where gangbanging was the natural way of life.

My point is just that some of the "gang-related" crimes may be misclassified. The numbers are small enough that it's difficult to be sure and less attention will be paid to the investigation if it occurs in a low income area.

Quote:

These situations with middle class suburban white kids who pre-meditate mass shootings of innocent civilians are much more complicated. There's no immediate cause to blame. Some blame guns. Some blame movies, tv, music. Some blame our culture in general. But it's a really tough thing to unravel. It seems to be a mix of so many different variables, from glorified gun violence to overmedication to lack of a moral family structure. One thing that always seems to connect them are is that they seem incredibly desensitized towards violence and in need of serious psychological help.

Why do the actions of a handful of extreme outliers indicate anything useful about our culture as a whole? I just don't buy it, I think it's media sensationalism and little more. There will always be defectives and we need to learn to cope with that. Of course we should try to identify them before something like this happens, but in a nation of three hundred million, a few are going to go crazy from time to time and often we'll be helpless to do anything.

meccalecca
Voice of Reason

Gender: Male
Location: The Land of Enchantment

sp4cetiger wrote:

Why do the actions of a handful of extreme outliers indicate anything useful about our culture as a whole? I just don't buy it, I think it's media sensationalism and little more. There will always be defectives and we need to learn to cope with that. Of course we should try to identify them before something like this happens, but in a nation of three hundred million, a few are going to go crazy from time to time and often we'll be helpless to do anything.

I'll be the first to admit that the media sensationalizes everything. Look no further than CNN's months of coverage of the missing Malaysian airplane. That said, America does produce a much higher rate of these defective outliers than any other nation.

I would never agree to a ban on any sort of art. Free speech is an incredibly important right, and anytime a government limits or grinds that right to a halt, horrible things happen. But, similarly, it's hard to ignore the widespread lack of social responsibility currently in the advertising, entertainment and publishing industries.

Over the past couple days I've watched 3 movies.
Irreversible: a film about a brutal rape
Spring Breakers: about a group a greedy suburban girls with seemingly no moral compass who eventually rob and kill to fulfill their greed
In Bruges: a dark comedy about a pair of hitmen

Out of the 3 films, a large majority would probably say Irreversible is the most socially deplorable because it features such a horrifying rape scene. And Spring Breakers would be seen as nearly as bad because it's such a stark view of moral decay. But I'd actually possibly argue that In Bruges is worse than both because Colin Ferrel plays a cool hitman, and the bits of violence in In Bruges are heavily stylized (although there's a sense of regret as well). The point is that it'd be tough to see eye to eye about what's socially irresponsible.
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RepoMan

sp4cetiger wrote:

Gang violence is generally classified differently from shootings like this and also gets less national press coverage. The profile of mass murderers as white people may actually be due to a form of racism -- when a black or Latino kid shoots up his neighborhood, it's just dismissed as "ordinary" gang violence.

.. but there are poor urban kids across the country who live in legitimate fear of being shot at every time they step out the door. An average of three people per hour are murdered by guns in the US. Moore's unfocused rant aside, that's a much stronger argument for gun control.

As a neurologist who specializes in neurorehabilitation in downtown Chicago, I can tell you that the number of completely innocent ADULT & children who have no relation to gang activity whatsoever who suffer from spinal cord injuries or traumatic brain injuries due to gunshot wounds is staggering. Perturbingly, a lot of it is not even related to "gang" activity or anything that has even the slighted bit of economic underpinning, but just plain callousness. When I speak to the older physicians, they confirm that the degree of desensitization to gun violence is drastically different than it was just two decades ago. It's literally the wild west in some of the really poor urban neighborhoods where any perceived slight or even misconstrued look may cause someone to shoot you. And God forbid, if a responsible adult tries to intervene to prevent bullying. And this kind of activity is so mundane here, that's it's not even newsworthy. Just an observation from someone who worked on the frontline in this area.

sp4cetiger

I understand what you're saying about violence in media, mecca, but I honestly don't know what could be done about it. You can't legislate good taste and as you said, we wouldn't want to take away free speech.

meccalecca wrote:

That said, America does produce a much higher rate of these defective outliers than any other nation.

What is this based on?

RepoMan wrote:

As a neurologist who specializes in neurorehabilitation in downtown Chicago, I can tell you that the number of completely innocent ADULT & children who have no relation to gang activity whatsoever who suffer from spinal cord injuries or traumatic brain injuries due to gunshot wounds is staggering. Unfortunately, a lot of it is not even related to "gang" activity or anything that has even the slighted bit of economic underpinning, but just plain callousness. When I speak to the older physicians, they confirm that the degree of desensitization to gun violence is drastically different than it was just two decades ago. It's literally the wild west in some of the really poor urban neighborhoods where any perceived slight or even misconstrued look may cause someone to shoot you. And God forbid, if a responsible adult tries to intervene to prevent bullying. And this kind of activity is so mundane here, that's it's not even newsworthy. Just an observation from someone who worked on the frontline in this area.

I can't even imagine some of the shit you must see doing your job. Thankfully, I don't live in one of these areas. This is more or less what I was trying to get at, though. As much as I feel bad for the victims of the SB shooting, as well as their families, it makes my stomach turn a little when the media goes into a whole state-of-mourning tone for days after events like this. Americans are dying all the time, many for reasons just as tragic as this shooting, but the debates are always dominated by the freak events that (not coincidentally) appear to threaten Joe Shmoe middle class American.

Skinny
birdman_handrub.gif

sp4cetiger wrote:

What is this based on?

In fairness, it is widely known and has been statistically proven that America has many more mass shootings than pretty much every other economically comparable, Western nation. However, the difference isn't that there are a higher proportion of crazed potential killers in America; it's that in America it is relatively easy for said crazed potential killers to get hold of guns. The number of mass shootings that took place in Australia was cut down drastically by introducing much tougher firearms regulations in the early '90s. To my mind, there is not so much wrong with American culture or the American media or the American psyche as there is with American gun laws.
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alelsupreme
Awful.

Gender: Male
Age: 27

meccalecca wrote:

That said, America does produce a much higher rate of these defective outliers than any other nation.

This is probably down to demographics; with 300+ million people, Americas naturally gonna have more of these events than, say, the UK or Germany.
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sp4cetiger

Skinny wrote:

In fairness, it is widely known and has been statistically proven that America has many more mass shootings than pretty much every other economically comparable, Western nation. However, the difference isn't that there are a higher proportion of crazed potential killers in America; it's that in America it is relatively easy for said crazed potential killers to get hold of guns.

Oh sure, the phrasing of the sentence just threw me, because if the US does have more "defectives" than most countries, that's a far more interesting (and surprising) statement.

I have heard it said that there is an inverse correlation between some mental illnesses (like depression) and economic conditions, though some of that may just be due to rates of reporting and diagnosis.

alelsupreme
Awful.

Gender: Male
Age: 27

Skinny wrote:

In fairness, it is widely known and has been statistically proven that America has many more mass shootings than pretty much every other economically comparable, Western nation. However, the difference isn't that there are a higher proportion of crazed potential killers in America; it's that in America it is relatively easy for said crazed potential killers to get hold of guns. The number of mass shootings that took place in Australia was cut down drastically by introducing much tougher firearms regulations in the early '90s. To my mind, there is not so much wrong with American culture or the American media or the American psyche as there is with American gun laws.

This too. If similar gun laws existed in Europe and the rest of the Anglosphere then we'd see a lot more mass shootings in these areas.
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Romanelli wrote:

We're all fucked, lads.

benpaco
Who's gonna watch you die?

Age: 27
Location: California

Skinny wrote:

To my mind, there is not so much wrong with American culture or the American media or the American psyche as there is with American gun laws.

You know, I agreed with everything else you said, but this one's tough for me. We have a pretty gun centric culture, but I agree that's not the biggest problem. The media isn't the biggest problem either (see below), but the media creates a legitimate and fairly large problem here. Whether we mean to or (hopefully) not, the media ends up turning murderers into celebrities - just look at Zimmerman's "Celebrity Boxing Match" that was supposed to happen, or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's obscure little fan club that popped up. The media focusses so much on the bad in the world and in the country, it feels like if one does something good, they won't get any sort of recognition for it. Much like kindergarteners who yell to get their parents' attention, some of these people end up getting their 15 minutes of fame, and attention, good or bad, is all that some of them are after.

All of that being said, gun laws are the number 2 priority, IMO, only behind getting better treatment and diagnoses for mentally disturbed or disabled individuals. If you look at mass shooters, especially recently, a LOT of them have had undiagnosed or untreated schizophrenia, PTSD, bipolar tendencies, etc. For so many different reasons, there have to be better mental care services in America.
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