Post subject: Point of Discussion: Barriers in Music
POINT OF DISCUSSION
This is Point of Discussion, a thread for people to discuss issues and topics related to music in a thoughtful and productive way. The goal of this is to make you think, to make you take a look at what you believe, why you believe it, and what others believe. Good discussion is the key to any society, and this is a place where, hopefully, that can be fostered. If you would like a certain topic to be discussed or question to be posed, PM me or post here and I'll toss it in when I can.
All of that being said, there are a few guidelines.
The Guidelines:
1. Don't be a dick - it's fairly simple, just be civil. Say what you want, believe what you want to believe, that's fine, just don't be a dick about it.
2. All opinions are welcome - no matter how unpopular you may think your opinion is (or how unpopular it eventually proves to be), post it. It's welcome. Just be prepared to defend that opinion if it's challenged.
3. There are no wrong opinions - like, it's literally impossible. These are opinions, so no matter how strongly you feel about it, it's neither right nor wrong, it's just an opinion, so keep that in mind.
4. The conversation can go anywhere - even if the discussion goes off of the original topic, that's fine. All kinds of tangents are possible, just try to keep it semi-relevant.
The Topic:
This is another topic courtesy of mecca:
meccalecca wrote:
Racial/gender/sexuality barriers within genres. Do they exist? Is it more challenging to make it for specific groups? Who's breaking these barriers? For example can white dudes with dreads actually make decent reggae? Are the walls of homophobia in rap breaking down? Is the macho world of metal still closed minded towards women?
We began discussing this, for those who didn't see, in the "Will there ever be a new best ever album?" thread when bcmandude was trying to compare BEA's and RYM's overall inclusion of women in their respective Top 1000 lists. Assuming we believe that barriers to female success exist in music to whatever extent we think we do, what form do we think those barriers take and whose responsibility is it to undermine those barriers?
To me personally, it seems that there are a lot of scales at which this question can be directed. For example, if our criterion of success is critical acclaim from music nerds online, I think that misogyny in music communities, while a problem, is perhaps overshadowed by broad socialization of women to have artistic ambitions in narrower realms of music. I think there is less emphasis on women as master composers, geniuses, etc. and more a societal tendency to push women towards incredibly emotive, straightforward music, whether it's pop or singer/songwriter or whatever. Of course, this emphasis has to be changed in a lot of places - when women succeed at different kinds of artistic pursuits, they should perhaps be elevated to set examples and help to break the cycle of societal expectation and female self-assignment into certain genres. I also don't want to pretend that there's just some sort of economic shift that needs to happen here - while record labels continue to take fewer risks, it would appear, on creative female auteurs (can anyone even name a major label female producer besides M.I.A. and Grimes in the last ten years? i'm straining), there's also the issue of music industry publicity for women. This is an issue I alluded to briefly, but I feel that poptimism, while making strides in getting female-centric genres like pop more critical evaluation, which I think is a good outcome, also breeds a certain pigeonholing of female creative energies. It also creates dilemmas for assessing female representation - if females are very well-represented in pop, does that help them to become more represented elsewhere?
I think all these causes and effects are mixed up, but I think a big thing is emphasizing the roles of women in diverse musical fields and having a serious look at what we assess as positive female representation. I obviously don't have any solid answers to these questions, as I'm not a woman, but it seems to me that emphasis should be placed first and foremost on the radical female creators of today and perhaps also on re-evaluating historically large female figures in musical history instead of just creating a political urgency for people to buy female-fronted pop records which, newsflash, are not where the problem is coming from. Taylor Swift doesn't need your rapid pseudo-feminist defense (especially as she acts like an utter oaf in her own attempts at female solidarity through white-washing), in other words. You know who does? Yoko Ono, a genius of her epoch whose role in musical history to the average music consumer is "John Lennon's crazy girlfriend who ruined his band." You know, the one who made provocative pro-woman art and participated in radical leftist activism for the liberation of people of color and the poor? Not the girl who got mad at Nicki for not respecting #AllWomenLives.
This was all over, but hopefully something can be taken from here.
This was all over, but hopefully something can be taken from here.
Thanks for getting it going. I came up with this idea for a topic and likely had something in depth in mind at the time, but I feel cloudy today so I probably don't have a ton to offer.
Do you think women being predominantly pop, r&b and folk musicians is a result of their own desires, following idols, etc, or is it the result of being ostracized from other music communities? Some genres seem like such boys clubs that I imagine that it's hard for women to feel comfortable being part of the scene. I imagine it's unwelcoming to feel like such an outsider, even when if the scene isn't filled with misogynists. Women are totally underrepresented in expansive genres like Rap and metal. I feel like it will take the equivalent of the Riot Grrrl scene to really shift things and inspire more women to follow those routes. Rap is probably further along but still has a long way to go.
On a totally different note...
How is the gender gap between men and women journalists effecting things? Music journalism has been male dominated for decades, and I can't help but think that it has a major impact on how the status of many women music legends have been glossed over in comparison to similar male artists. _________________ http://jonnyleather.com
I honestly don't feel like I know enough about the music industry to answer a lot of the questions here, but I wanted to offer this as I still don't really know how to feel about it:
Some time back, I was dating a girl who had fairly similar tastes in music to me, who I tried showing Cocteau Twins to. She was a fan of Ride, My Bloody Valentine, The Cure, Joy Division, The Smiths, etc., lots of that alternative 80s music nerd friendly stuff. So I was sort of expecting a good review of Cocteau Twins. She liked it some, but pointed out that she wasn't a fan of female vocalists for the most part.
That's something I'd encountered before, but only in situations of guys who, frankly, weren't all that comfortable with girls in the first place, ones who I could see being physically made uncomfortable by the idea of female talent (not exactly my friends, but they were people I knew and what am I going to talk about with people outside of music?) And in fact, there's a decent number of people I've encountered since with the same feeling - it's not like I'd thought to go "hey how do you feel about girls singing" prior to this whole thing. Is that inherently sexist, or is it similar to how other people might feel about other elements of music? I know people who don't like anything with a more dubstep style synth, or others who generally aren't a fan of music using pedal-heavy guitars. Hell, there are people I know who don't like Joy Division, The National, Lou Reed, or Leonard Cohen, and the only reason they can give is that they don't like the way the baritone vocalists sound. There's situations where the vocals completely turn me away from an artist, even. Is not liking female vocals a problem? _________________
I'll retort with another question - what are female vocals? Bjork? Joanna Newsom? Diamanda Galas? Kate Bush? Christina Aguilera? Yoko Ono? Junko? Ruby Helder? Billie Holiday? Grimes? Julia Holter? There is such a vast variety of vocal styles and ranges that women could possibly employ that I think off-handedly dismissing female vocals is, if not necessarily problematic, at least ignorant of the fact that women have a vast variety of styles available to them, too. Like, in your own post, you refer to "baritone vocals" when you talk about those male artists because you know that men also employ different vocal registers, perform in screamo acts and growl in metal music. I think it's a matter of not reducing women to one niche, which I think goes along with the wider cultural expectation of women fitting a certain range of styles.
I'll retort with another question - what are female vocals?
I've also heard people say they don't like female vocals. It's totally baffling, and inherently sexist. I could understand not liking certain vocal styles and ranges, but not all women fit within a certain style or range. Nina Simone and Grimes sound nothing alike. And then there's women with deep voices, and dudes who sing in falsetto. _________________ http://jonnyleather.com
I've also heard people say they don't like female vocals. It's totally baffling, and inherently sexist. I could understand not liking certain vocal styles and ranges, but not all women fit within a certain style or range. Nina Simone and Grimes sound nothing alike. And then there's women with deep voices, and dudes who sing in falsetto.
All points made are good and basically fit what's in my head but y'all know I'm often especially sensitive so I wasn't sure if I was just overreacting, but this mecca put it really well I think.
There's also the only agendered vocalist I know, Eliot Sumner, who frankly I was unsure of the gender of until I googled and went "yo I don't actually know any other agender vocalists".
There's also the only agendered vocalist I know, Eliot Sumner, who frankly I was unsure of the gender of until I googled and went "yo I don't actually know any other agender vocalists".
Merrill Garbus was one for me. Totally thought she was a guy until I looked her up. _________________ Progressive Rock
I also want to add that I think that anyone who doesn't like The Ronettes and Nina Simone is inhuman, therefore anyone who doesn't like ALL female vocalists is inhuman _________________ http://jonnyleather.com
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