I feel like hardcore punk is just an amplification of punk rock. The guitars are lightning fast and the vocals roar. It's awesome if you're in the mood to thrash about, but most of the time I just want to sulk, so post-punk is much more appropriate. I love that post-punk bands warped the basic punk rock sound by experimenting with added instrumentation or ranging tempos. Post-punk/art-punk is the perfect recipe for repressed angst.
I'd probably pick Wire, The Swell Maps, Wipers, and Pere Ubu over Dead Kennedys, Bad Brains, Black Flag, and Minor Threat any day... except when the adrenaline is really kicking.
Okay, guys, here's a question:
What would you consider to be THE big four of each genre? Like, specifically the Mount Rushmore of each genre group-wise. Like if you had to choose the 4 definitive GODS of each subgenre who would they be?
Then after that is answered how do those top 4 definitive bands stack up against each other?
I used to consider Joy Division (/New Order?), Wire, PIL, and Gang of Four the "big four" of post punk, but these days I'd replace Gang of Four with The Fall not just because of preference but also because of influence et al. reasons (I mean, Gang of Four had one transcendental album and two or three other greats, whereas The Fall has three or four transcendental greats and a longer-lasting influence, perhaps maybe because of Peel).
When it comes to hardcore, it depends on what you define as hardcore. I'd place Black Flag, Minor Threat, and Bad Brains up top, but does something like X, or Gun Club, or FUGAZI, etc. count as hardcore? idk. If I had a gun to my head, I'd say Black Flag, X, Bad Brains, and Minor Threat are the "Mount Rushmore" of hardcore.
Both genres have more than four greats.
All that being said, I think post-punk will always beat out hardcore (at least for me). Hardcore depended upon emotion and appropriation of style, whereas post-punk seemed to depend upon emotion and appropriation tampered with intellectualism, or at least some meditation or reflection on what their music conveyed.
OK. My boss is probably really pist off by now, but this was fun…
First off, as KoolKeithSweat so eloquently described above far better than I ever could, hardcore was not built to last. Thus the best hardcore bands either broke up or evolved into metal (Suicidal Tendencies, Bad Brains, Circle Jerks), freak-folk (Meat Puppets), or even the neighborhood bar band (The Replacements). So in a Post-Punk band legacy vs. Hardcore band legacy debate, it’s not a fair fight. Post-punk will win every time. HOWEVER, approaching this on a purely album basis makes for a more interesting fight. So I framed the debate as two different competing record collections, and if the proverbial gun was placed to my head, which I would viscerally choose.
Since the two genres often blur on some of the best releases, I’ve tried to stick to Mercury’s initial definition as best as possible. When in doubt, American bands went in the hardcore camp. I used 1980 as the benchmark year for both genres give or take 4 years.
tl;dr So I framed the debate as two different competing record collections, and if the proverbial gun was placed to my head, which I would viscerally choose.
Hardcore Record Collection
Circle Jerks - Group Sex (’80)
Black Flag - Damaged (’81)
Minor Threat - EPs (’81, ‘84)
Bad Brains - s/t (’81)
Fear - The Record (’82)
Flipper - Generic (’82)
Negative Approach - Total Recall (’82, ’83)
The Minutemen - Double Nickles (’84)
Meat Puppets - II (’84)
Husker Du - Zen Arcade (’84)
Subs:
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit (’80)
Adolescents - s/t (’81)
Angry Samoans - Back to Samoa (’82)
Post-Punk Record Collection
Devo - Q: Are We Not Men? ('78 )
Pere Ubu - The Modern Dance ('78 )
Wire - Chairs Missing ('78 )
PIL - Metal Box (’79)
Joy Division - Unknown Pleasure (’79)
Gang of Four - Entertainment (’79)
The Feelies - Crazy Rhythms (’80)
Killing Joke - What’s This For (’81)
The Fall - Hex Enducation Hour (’82)
The Cure - Pornography (’83)
Subs:
Magazine - Real Life ('78 )
The Soft Boys - Underwater Moonlight (’80)
Siouxsie & the Banshees - Kaleidoscope (’80)
With out having time to think about, I would immediately snatch the hardcore record selection. No question. Despite Pornograpy being my favorite album of all time.
Aside: Talking Heads were excluded. I can’t think of them as post-punk as hard as I tried. Same with Television. I mean they both played at CBGBs and both just don’t sound post-punk to me. Post-punk is kind of like porn I guess.
Bside: I think X are way overrated.
EDIT: The Mount Rushmore
Hardcore
1. Black Flag
2. Minutemen
3. Minor Threat
4. Negative Approach
subs: Bad Brains, Circle Jerks, Flipper, Husker Du
Post-Punk
1. The Cure
2. Joy Divison
3. PIL
4. Killing Joke
subs:The Fall, Wire, Devo, Siouxsie & the Banshees
Honestly, it's just a bloodbath.
Would love to see Robert Smith and Henry Rollins in a fight. Pure comedy.
The Minutemen - Double Nickles (’84)
Meat Puppets - II (’84)
Husker Du - Zen Arcade (’84)
Hmm... I forgot about the post-hardcore crossover albums. I'd throw some NoMeansNo in there and we'll have a set of albums on par with some of the best post-punk albums.
Hmm... I forgot about the post-hardcore crossover albums. I'd throw some NoMeansNo in there and we'll have a set of albums on par with some of the best post-punk albums.
That's what I'm talking about!
newbands1 wrote:
For those interested here are some often overlooked 80's hardcore bands,mostly from the DC scene
This super cheap 3 disc comp on the legendary Dischord Records out of DC is a convenient place to pick some of this stuff up. Pretty essential if you're lazy like me. Give me convenience or give me death.
I love both, but I have a soft spot for hardcore. Post-punk was more intellectual, but could also be pretentious at times. Hardcore is more flexible, as evidenced by the many different directions taken by its original core, and never purports to be anything more than what it is. Here are my responses to Mercury's original match-ups:
Dead Kennedys vs Gang Of Four?
Wire vs Bad Brains?
Black Flag vs Joy Division?
Minor Threat Discography vs This Nation's Saving Grace
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