Point of Discussion: Purism vs. Tokenism

[RockyRaccoon]

POINT OF DISCUSSION

This is Point of Discussion, a thread for people to discuss issues and topics related to music in a thoughtful and productive way. The goal of this is to make you think, to make you take a look at what you believe, why you believe it, and what others believe. Good discussion is the key to any society, and this is a place where, hopefully, that can be fostered. If you would like a certain topic to be discussed or question to be posed, PM me or post here and I'll toss it in when I can.

All of that being said, there are a few guidelines.

The Guidelines:

1. Don't be a dick - it's fairly simple, just be civil. Say what you want, believe what you want to believe, that's fine, just don't be a dick about it.
2. All opinions are welcome - no matter how unpopular you may think your opinion is (or how unpopular it eventually proves to be), post it. It's welcome. Just be prepared to defend that opinion if it's challenged.
3. There are no wrong opinions - like, it's literally impossible. These are opinions, so no matter how strongly you feel about it, it's neither right nor wrong, it's just an opinion, so keep that in mind.
4. The conversation can go anywhere - even if the discussion goes off of the original topic, that's fine. All kinds of tangents are possible, just try to keep it semi-relevant.

The Topic:

If someone would like to expand on these definitions (or correct them if they're wrong) go for it.

Purism - Assuming that there are strict "rules" to what a genre is and discrediting any artist that strays from those "rules" e.g. "[insert artist here] isn't REAL hip-hop"

Tokenism - Giving little more than a cursory glance at a genre, listening only to a couple specific artists (typically the "classics") and then assuming you know everything about that genre e.g. "I listened to My Bloody Valentine so I'm way super into shoegaze"

Or as Apple so elegantly put it:

[Puncture Repair]

As with all things, its about having a healthy balance.

Purism is a product of being a big fish in a small pond, asserting your dominance. Tokenism is the product of being a small fish in a big pond, trying to gain an identity.

Of the two, purism is at least productive, trying to conserve genre guidelines (which could be a good or bad thing, but at least it's fighting for a belief), however its usually in attempt to inflate a sense of self-importance. Tokenism is only the latter.

Assume you don't know everything; learn from others; share your opinions.

[mickilennial]

Both are infantile, and being from a metal community before I ran into both pretty constantly. I’d have to say in my experience I’ll take purists over tokenists any day of the week because at least they are somewhat informed on their genres of choice and don’t sound infantile in their framework. But I would liken both to being shameful perspectives to take in a discussion of a genre/album.

[Tap]

This definition of tokenism seems like it's set up to be obviously worse, since it assumes an expertise in the genre that isn't there, whereas the purist is simply overly strict, but at least it's based on knowledge. I think it would make more sense to compare the purist behavior to people who think the greatness of an album can be appreciated without an interest or deep knowledge of the genre.

[meccalecca]

[mickilennial]

[Applerill]

I dunno, I think we shouldn't be calling either of these "shameful" per Se, because we all commit these fallacies whether we realize it or not.

For instance, I don't mean to pick on Hayden and BenPaco for this, but when they were talking about Jean Rollin being horrible and things like Halloween just being "pretty good" (once again I don't remember what exactly they said, but they aren't the point, because this is really common), they were basically being tokenists towards horror, not realizing how canonized these movies he considers to be "pretty good" are. My point is, none of us know about everything, and our inexperience often instinctively leads to tokenism. It's nothing to be ashamed of; you just need to be conscious of when you're doing it.

Purism is a little less widespread, and some people even argue that it can be a good thing, but I feel like it too often leads to people missing out on great trends coming up ahead. A lot of people hated on pop-punk and slam death metal when I was a kid, and now those are often considered among the most important genres of the 2000s. You just need to be careful that you're not like Adorno praising Schoenberg over Stravinsky.

[Tap]

aren't you being a tokenist now tho Applerill, taking one example and saying it means something for a whole bunch of people? because I do not think I do this behavior.

[meccalecca]

[meccalecca]