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Skinny
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- #31
- Posted: 12/17/2018 16:20
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| Fischman wrote: | Yep.
A harsh term that may unfairly paint some folks with a same brush as others who actually deserve it.
I admit it.
It was a strong term to make a point... that popularity and artistic merit are not necessarily the same thing.
Meanwhile, you're false accusation was directed at a single person when there is ample evidence to the contrary, and contributed to making no point at all except your need to label someone because you don't like his POV. |
You keep saying it's a false accusation as though you aren't an evident elitist with a proven predilection for prog.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: Maryland
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- #32
- Posted: 12/17/2018 16:31
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| Fischman wrote: |
Even closer to pure art, one need not be William Faulkner to know that Victor Hugo wrote greater literature than Tom Clancy... even though the latter has sold a lot more books. |
I mean, in your opinion, sure. I know plenty of people who would prefer Clancy to Faulkner. Shit, my wife read Faulkner and hated it, and I can promise you she'd tell you she prefers Nicholas Sparks to Faulkner.
But I assume all those people are part of the mindless masses and their opinions don't matter.
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craola
crayon master
Location: pdx
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- #33
- Posted: 12/17/2018 17:30
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| Fischman wrote: | | Maybe I should have used a figure skating analogy instead since skaters are ranked on technical merit and artistic merit. Same thing applies. One need not be Peggy Fleming to know which skaters excel at the latter and which ones don't. |
Figure skating, rhythmic gymnastics and women's artistic gymnastics all suffer from the "let's judge artistic" business though. It opens up the door too wide for cheating, and as someone working in the gymnastics industry, I can tell you there has been a lot of cheating over the years. I admit that I've read through the code for figure skating, and it's generally stronger than the aforementioned gymnastics disciplines, but I don't think you can justify judging a sport artistically. You can make the sport more artistic through demanding certain form requirements, element/skill requirements, groups, etc., but as soon as you cross the threshold into "eye of the beholder", you're short-selling the athletes. On that note, Rhythmic Gymnastics is getting a major overhaul right now because the IOC and the FIG essentially told them their sport is B.S., since the artistic component makes it more Cirque Du Soleil than Olympic sport. There were a couple dozen specific changes the FIG imposed on the Rhythmic Technical Committee (only half of which were followed through on so far), so it's slowly improving. But I've watched and judged the exercises. The results would be much different if you were only looking at the difficulty and execution scores. There are a couple of gymnasts in particular who are clearly, blatantly inferior to other girls on the floor, but when an eastern European gymnast who is scarcely an orchid of a woman walks out onto the floor, she gets a perfect artistic score simply for existing. This is a major problem.
As I stated previously, you don't have to be Usain Bolt to look good in running shoes. I'm pretty sure the folks modeling in all those shoe adverts spend less time in the gym than Tom Brady and Serena Williams. Art isn't about technical prowess and athleticism. It can have that element. It can rely solely on that if it wants to, but music is not sport. How boring that would be...
| Fischman wrote: | | Even closer to pure art, one need not be William Faulkner to know that Victor Hugo wrote greater literature than Tom Clancy... even though the latter has sold a lot more books. |
Ah, I love Victor Hugo, but once again, it all depends on how "greater" is defined. There's no concensus on what "greatness" in art is. And as Rocky pointed out, plenty of folks would disagree with your assertion here. I haven't read any Tom Clancy to weigh in one way or another, but I know a handful of people who are turned off by Victor Hugo or simply wouldn't dare to invest themselves in something as lengthy as Les Miserables.
Look, I get it. I grew up an athlete competing at a high level against guys who would go on to compete in the Olympics, coached by guys with Olympic gold medals and World Championship titles. I came from a competitive world. I too find myself wanting to elevate the more athletic artists. The ones who push themselves to be "better", more technically sound, faster, stronger - what have you. But in the end, you have to separate art and sport. You can appreciate both for what they are. I don't think I'll be listening to much Brandi Carlyle for years to come, but I don't see the need to undersell what she's accomplished. Any degree of success in this industry is tough, and I would argue that connecting with people on any level is a success, indeed even qualifies it as quality music.
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gloriousgoo
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- #34
- Posted: 12/17/2018 20:55
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| Quote: | | their skill is at tapping into hearts and minds of the generally population, which as we all know, ain't the brightest bunch. |
This is legitimately embarrassing to read. I didn't think anyone other than edgy 15 year olds actually had this big of a chip on their shoulder. You, just like everyone else, are completely average in so many ways, you just happen to know a bit more about music.
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paladisiac
= music
Gender: Male
Location: Denver
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souplipton
Gender: Male
Location: Toronto
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- #36
- Posted: 12/17/2018 22:56
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These lists don't do it for me, and I don't like a lot of pop music on the radio, but can we not shit all over popular music for the "crime" of being popular. I might prefer prog and art rock, but making a hit record requires talent and presents different creative challenges than other forms of music, so it's unfair to just dismiss pop music just for being pop music. Judge the music on its own merits. There's great prog, and there's shitty prog. There's great pop, and there's shitty pop. Prog isn't entitled to greatness anymore than any other type of music just for being prog, and pop isn't doomed to be crap anymore than any other type of music just for being pop. Judge the music on its own merits.
Also, don't dismiss people's opinions if they don't agree with yours. Just because someone likes something that is popular, that doesn't mean that their opinion is any less valid. Let people enjoy the music they like. "The masses" may not agree with you, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is an idiot.
P.S. please don't group everyone who enjoys progressive rock into a single monolithic group of pretentious ass-hats. There are ass-hats who enjoy every genre, not just prog rock. Judge the music fan on their own merits.
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LedZep
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- #37
- Posted: 12/17/2018 23:05
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| Skinny wrote: | | Always the prog snobs. |
Always the "always the prog snubs" snubs. I love prog and have no problem with those year end lists, even when I don't like most of the albums. Which I usually do.
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LedZep
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- #38
- Posted: 12/17/2018 23:14
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And about Hugo, Faulkner and cheap literature... Isn't the thing that makes books, movies etc. "classic" and "good" their ability to withstand the test of time? Of course that's not definitive or 100% correct criteria, but it's a thought.
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Skinny
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- #39
- Posted: 12/17/2018 23:26
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| LedZep wrote: | | Skinny wrote: | | Always the prog snobs. |
Always the "always the prog snubs" snubs. I love prog and have no problem with those year end lists, even when I don't like most of the albums. Which I usually do. |
One can be a prog fan without being a prog snob. Fischman can't manage it, though.
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cestuneblague
Edgy to the Choir
Location: MA/FL
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- #40
- Posted: 12/17/2018 23:32
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What about the "Rock Opera" snobs?
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