Is cultural diversity a criterion for chart quality? - Music

Necharsian
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Gender: Male

denmarkman wrote:

I mean, I doubt there are many users who take the "I'll put only cool albums on my chart so people think I'm educated and shit" approach to chart-making, but I imagine there are a lot of users who are at least somewhat influenced by what other people will think when making their charts. I wouldn't name names, obviously, since it's pretty much impossible to know just by looking, but I don't think it's out of the question that someone might feel somewhat differently about an album or band (either consciously or subconsciously) based on its perceived "cool" factor.

I feel like this would be describing the "standard" charts, but I can see how it would go both ways. "Oh BEA has Radiohead high on its chart, Ill put Radiohead high on my own because ~appeal~" vs "Oh BEA has Radiohead high on its chart, Ill leave Radiohead off because ~snowflake~"

Neither one I really care about when looking at someones chart though. Again, it's their biz. I take charts at their face value.

Revolution909

Age: 29
Location: Galway, Ireland's 4th City

Skinny wrote:

satiemaniac made this point earlier, but what about when you're listening to Public Enemy? Or Fela Kuti? Or Irish rebel songs? Or Marvin Gaye? Or Curtis Mayfield? Or any of the thousands of artists whose music has been inspired by racial issues? This music is so powerful because of the artists' respective backgrounds, and this idea that music "should be colour-blind" is absolute nonsense. I'm not saying your own personal enjoyment of an artist's music should be dictated by race (it definitely shouldn't), but to turn a blind eye and pretend that race isn't a major factor in popular music is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I can agree with that.

When I said that music should be colour-blind, it was meant more from a perspective that one should not prejudge music because of the race(s)/ethnicities of it's creator rather than a "race and music are mutually exclusive" viewpoint. Smile

I should have been more precise with my phrasing.
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RockyRaccoon
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Skinny wrote:

satiemaniac made this point earlier, but what about when you're listening to Public Enemy? Or Fela Kuti? Or Irish rebel songs? Or Marvin Gaye? Or Curtis Mayfield? Or any of the thousands of artists whose music has been inspired by racial issues? This music is so powerful because of the artists' respective backgrounds, and this idea that music "should be colour-blind" is absolute nonsense. I'm not saying your own personal enjoyment of an artist's music should be dictated by race (it definitely shouldn't), but to turn a blind eye and pretend that race isn't a major factor in popular music is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

For me, the only thing that I find to be important to an album outside of the music itself is context. If race or racial struggles or whatever happen to be a part of that context, then yes, that's important to keep in mind.

For example, when listening to Marvin Gaye's "Here, My Dear", I believe that it's more important to be aware of the context of that album (i.e. Gaye's divorce with Anna Gordy), than the fact that Gaye's black, because that album isn't about race. However, when listening to an album such as Public Enemy's "Fear Of A Black Planet", race is an important thing to keep in mind as that is the context of the album.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but in essence, I'm not going to approach an album and go "Oh this guy's black" or "Oh this guy's white". I don't listen to Mayer Hawthorne and go "This white guy is doing soul therefore I do/do not like it" in the same way that I don't listen to Living Colour and say "These black guys are doing metal and therefore I do/do not like it". Race is only important to keep in mind when listening to an album when it provides important context for that album. Otherwise, it's irrelevant.
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RockyRaccoon wrote:

For example, when listening to Marvin Gaye's "Here, My Dear", I believe that it's more important to be aware of the context of that album (i.e. Gaye's divorce with Anna Gordy), than the fact that Gaye's black, because that album isn't about race. However, when listening to an album such as Public Enemy's "Fear Of A Black Planet", race is an important thing to keep in mind as that is the context of the album.

Well, Here My Dear is favourite Marvin album, and that album clearly isn't about race. But What's Going On is.

I agree with you in terms of an artist's race having no bearing on my enjoyment of the music itself, but I also think continuing to perpetuate this "colourblind" idea is actually harmful. Issues about race are still extremely prevalent, as proved by a whole string of huge news stories emanating every day from major western nations, and I don't believe this wishy washy, liberal, "I don't see race" viewpoint is actually helping anybody. The sooner we all acknowledge the fact that the reason so much music is so great is actually because of the artist's race, and not in spite of it, the sooner we can start to move to a place where it might actually be possible to become "colourblind". Until then, it just seems like people are burying their head in the sand and trying to remain guilt-free. I just get annoyed when people say, "I don't hear race in music". Yes, you do. It's there. It's prevalent. There is no reason to deny it. That isn't to say that a white person can't possibly make hip-hop music or soul music that is as good as that of their black peers, but that it's important to recognise who is behind this music. It may not impact on your or my enjoyment of the music, but failure to recognise how and why these artists are making the statements that they are is harmful. The fact remains that on every single Marvin Gaye release, part of the context is that he's a black man living in America, whether or not the music itself specifically tackles that as a theme. Whether you like it or not, that is an important thing to remember contextually. Techno music is so powerful partly because it came from young black kids in Detroit looking to transcend the grey tower blocks and factories they saw around them every day, and doing so by paying tribute to European synth experimentalists and looking to outer-space, Sun Ra-style, for inspiration. Even without lyrics, the context of that music is that these were black people in America turning to escapism to help get themselves by. An artist's race has a profound effect on the music they make, and to deny this by claiming that "music is music and it should be colourblind" is actually pretty offensive.
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denmarkman

Gender: Male
Age: 31

Necharsian wrote:

I take charts at their face value.

Well yeah, as do I. My original point was more meant to be hypothetical.

RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

Gender: Male
Age: 33
Location: Maryland

Moderator

Skinny wrote:

Well, Here My Dear is favourite Marvin album, and that album clearly isn't about race. But What's Going On is.

I agree with you in terms of an artist's race having no bearing on my enjoyment of the music itself, but I also think continuing to perpetuate this "colourblind" idea is actually harmful. Issues about race are still extremely prevalent, as proved by a whole string of huge news stories emanating every day from major western nations, and I don't believe this wishy washy, liberal, "I don't see race" viewpoint is actually helping anybody. The sooner we all acknowledge the fact that the reason so much music is so great is actually because of the artist's race, and not in spite of it, the sooner we can start to move to a place where it might actually be possible to become "colourblind". Until then, it just seems like people are burying their head in the sand and trying to remain guilt-free. I just get annoyed when people say, "I don't hear race in music". Yes, you do. It's there. It's prevalent. There is no reason to deny it. That isn't to say that a white person can't possibly make hip-hop music or soul music that is as good as that of their black peers, but that it's important to recognise who is behind this music. It may not impact on your or my enjoyment of the music, but failure to recognise how and why these artists are making the statements that they are is harmful. The fact remains that on every single Marvin Gaye release, part of the context is that he's a black man living in America, whether or not the music itself specifically tackles that as a theme. Whether you like it or not, that is an important thing to remember contextually. Techno music is so powerful partly because it came from young black kids in Detroit looking to transcend the grey tower blocks and factories they saw around them every day, and doing so by paying tribute to European synth experimentalists and looking to outer-space, Sun Ra-style, for inspiration. Even without lyrics, the context of that music is that these were black people in America turning to escapism to help get themselves by. An artist's race has a profound effect on the music they make, and to deny this by claiming that "music is music and it should be colourblind" is actually pretty offensive.

I think we might want to use different terms.

I would argue that some music is created because of a musician's culture that they were raised in (of which race is a product of) than only their race. Culture is the all-encompassing thing here, as race (at least in the non-scientific sense) is a cultural construct. In other words, a black person, for example, born and raised in a certain location, in a certain socioeconomic standing and a certain ethnic background may create different music than another black person in a different location, in a different socioeconomic standing and different ethnic background. Their being black is only a small part of the overarching culture they are a part of that influences their music.
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RockyRaccoon wrote:

I think we might want to use different terms.

I would argue that some music is created because of a musician's culture that they were raised in (of which race is a product of) than only their race. Culture is the all-encompassing thing here, as race (at least in the non-scientific sense) is a cultural construct. In other words, a black person, for example, born and raised in a certain location, in a certain socioeconomic standing and a certain ethnic background may create different music than another black person in a different location, in a different socioeconomic standing and different ethnic background. Their being black is only a small part of the overarching culture they are a part of that influences their music.

First off, I would argue that all music, to some extent, is created because of the culture the musician was raised in. And yes, the cultural environment a musician was raised in and has experienced will differ immensely from person to person. I didn't say the artist's race was the main influence on the artist's work - it is merely one part of a much wider sphere of influences - nor do I believe anything of the sort. Nothing you've said here even addresses my point, which was that it is silly and ignorant to dismiss an artist's race when evaluating their work, and it doesn't help anybody to argue that music should be enjoyed colourblind (as in, without taking the artist's race into account). It shouldn't. That doesn't mean I think an artist's race should impact on what anybody thinks of any record; it just means I think that it's not something that should be willfully ignored either.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

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Skinny wrote:

First off, I would argue that all music, to some extent, is created because of the culture the musician was raised in. And yes, the cultural environment a musician was raised in and has experienced will differ immensely from person to person. I didn't say the artist's race was the main influence on the artist's work - it is merely one part of a much wider sphere of influences - nor do I believe anything of the sort. Nothing you've said here even addresses my point, which was that it is silly and ignorant to dismiss an artist's race when evaluating their work, and it doesn't help anybody to argue that music should be enjoyed colourblind (as in, without taking the artist's race into account). It shouldn't. That doesn't mean I think an artist's race should impact on what anybody thinks of any record; it just means I think that it's not something that should be willfully ignored either.

I agree.

I think instead of saying "I don't see race", people should say "I see race. I don't see an issue with it."
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RockyRaccoon wrote:

I agree.

I think instead of saying "I don't see race", people should say "I see race. I don't see an issue with it."

Oh right, apologies. Yeah, that sounds pretty much on the money to me.
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RockyRaccoon
Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me?

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Skinny wrote:

Oh right, apologies. Yeah, that sounds pretty much on the money to me.

I think we were more arguing semantics, which I tend to get distracted on too much.
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